The weight of over 50 ozs makes it an AW according to the Unsafe Act.

 

Hey I appreciate the reply but I don't think you fully read my post. I understand what makes a pistol illegal under the safe act, I'm asking what in the eyes of NYS law 'is' a 'pistol'.

Well, to answer the first part.. it's a little more complicated than I'm making it here, but NYS penal law specifically states that it is illegal to posses a 'firearm' (265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm). Compliant Rifles and Shotguns are exempt as 'firearms', and an exemption is defined (I don't remember the code) for those with license to possess a pistol. So, you can't own a 'firearm' because there is no legal exemption to own it, such as with pistols.

So, on to the second, all of those firearms you list would be illegal in NY simply because they have one or more banned feature

For a pistol to be an 'assualt weapon' it has to be
A semiautomatic pistol, able to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the
following characteristics:
a.Folding or Telescoping Stock
b.Thumbhole Stock
c.Second Handgrip or Protruding Grip that can be held by non trigger hand
d.Capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside the pistol
grip
e.A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand
grip or silencer
f.A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that
permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non trigger hand without being burned
g. A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded

This is more helpful, so you're saying anything not a rifle or a shotgun is illegal to own without permission?

I'm not sure if this is true though as there is no 'other' category described, it just lists pistols, SBS, SBRs, AOW, DD, etc. There isn't a catch all miscallenous category unless I'm missing it. If you could find that language that'd be a huge help, I'm looking too.

To reiterate: what I'm asking is, what part of the law defines what is and what isnt a pistol?

 

Well, to answer the first part.. it's a little more complicated than I'm making it here, but NYS penal law specifically states that it is illegal to posses a 'firearm' (265.01-b Criminal possession of a firearm). Compliant Rifles and Shotguns are exempt as 'firearms', and an exemption is defined (I don't remember the code) for those with license to possess a pistol. So, you can't own a 'firearm' because there is no legal exemption to own it, such as with pistols.

So, on to the second, all of those firearms you list would be illegal in NY simply because they have one or more banned feature

For a pistol to be an 'assualt weapon' it has to be
A semiautomatic pistol, able to accept a detachable magazine and has at least one of the
following characteristics:
a.Folding or Telescoping Stock
b.Thumbhole Stock
c.Second Handgrip or Protruding Grip that can be held by non trigger hand
d.Capacity to accept an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside the pistol
grip
e.A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand
grip or silencer
f.A shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that
permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non trigger hand without being burned
g. A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded

 

You will not find the definition of a pistol anywhere in NYS law.

 

I'm beginning to think that is the case. Thank you.

You are looking at NY law the wrong way. The way NY law is written everything that shoots a bullet using gunpowder is illegal unless excepted or exempted. So willjr75's reply is relevant to your question of legality- it would not be legal as it would be an assault weapon whether pistol or rifle. If you want to try and say it's a rifle (which is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder) that's fine, it's illegal under the rifle assault weapon definitions- 265.22(a). If you want to call it a pistol (which is covered under the term "FIREARMS" in NY along with SBRs etc) its still illegal under 265.22.(c).

I see the point you're trying to make here, about 'firearms' being illegal without permit but shotguns and rifles aren't considered firearms. This is the section you're referring to, and it goes on to talk about shotguns and rifles separately:

"S 265.01Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth
degree when:
(1) He or she possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic..."

However, 'firearm' is earlier defined as:

"Firearm" means (a) any pistol or revolver; or (b) a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length [SBS] ; or (c) a rifle
having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length [SBR]; or (d)
any weapon made from a shotgun or rifle whether by alteration,
modification, or otherwise if such weapon as altered, modified, or
otherwise has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches; or (e)
an assault weapon."

But you have to understand that assault weapon is also defined there by the glorious text of the SAFE act we are all very familiar with. Because of this it *cannot* be considered an assault weapon.

So my point is that the Black Aces Tactical DT falls under none of these definitions. On the federal level it's considered a 'firearm' -- not a pistol or a shotgun. At the state level it's considered ??? some amorphous 'other' category like a receiver? For which there is no explicit law?

Thanks for the discussion here guys

 

You are looking at NY law the wrong way. The way NY law is written everything that shoots a bullet using gunpowder is illegal unless excepted or exempted. So willjr75's reply is relevant to your question of legality- it would not be legal as it would be an assault weapon whether pistol or rifle. If you want to try and say it's a rifle (which is defined as being designed to be fired from the shoulder) that's fine, it's illegal under the rifle assault weapon definitions- 265.22(a). If you want to call it a pistol (which is covered under the term "FIREARMS" in NY along with SBRs etc) its still illegal under 265.22.(c).

 

I see your point. To the ATF, it is considered a firearm. To the state it is not considered neither a pistol, legal length shouldered rifle, legal length shouldered shotgun, or revolver.

If you were to get charged with Criminal Possession of Weapon, you'd have to prove it's neither of the above listed firearms by definition. You'd win that.

The state will in turn refer to the ATF definition and say it's a firearm and try to convict you.

You in turn could not use the ATF definition as a defense since in NY firearms are illegal unless exempted or not considered such. IE.. Legal length shotgun or rifle.

More than likely a jury will convict you and you'd have to appeal. There is a chance that they would drop the charge but we are in NY. I would not put my life in the hands of sheep and Fudds.

 

I see your point. To the ATF, it is considered a firearm. To the state it is not considered neither a pistol, legal length shouldered rifle, legal length shouldered shotgun, or revolver.

If you were to get charged with Criminal Possession of Weapon, you'd have to prove it's neither of the above listed firearms by definition. You'd win that.

The state will in turn refer to the ATF definition and say it's a firearm and try to convict you.

You in turn could not use the ATF definition as a defense since in NY firearms are illegal unless exempted or not considered such. IE.. Legal length shotgun or rifle.

More than likely a jury will convict you and you'd have to appeal. There is a chance that they would drop the charge but we are in NY. I would not put my life in the hands of sheep and Fudds.

Fair enough. I don't have any intention of doing these builds just trying to see if I'm missing parts of the NYS law. Certainly interesting to think about though. You make a great point about the trial by jury too -- yikes. I'm just imagining a juror's box full of soccer moms and one Fudd who makes the guilty verdict unanimous simply because I didn't use enough wood furniture and it wasn't chambered in forty-five aye-cee-pee.

Ah, the folding "brace" is what confused me, I was thinking stock... for some reason Took me a while to figure out your point.

So if I understand you the argument: since it's theoretically not meant to be fired from the shoulder it can't qualify for shotgun (or rifle in the lower case) and therefore can only fall under the assault weapon code if it's a 'pistol.' NY has (perhaps cleverly) not defined 'pistol'. I suspect it would be a case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.' If you are using the pistol brace as intended you would probably have a hard time convincing the legal system that it wasn't a pistol by some sort of common definition.

But I do get that it's a bit of a legal soft spot.

No problem about the confusion -- these laws are tricky for a reason I think we can agree on that. I also think we can agree that anything you'd have to prove in court instead of producing a highlighted print out of penal code to a curious LEO isn't worth doing.

 

Ah, the folding "brace" is what confused me, I was thinking stock... for some reason :wacko: Took me a while to figure out your point.


So if I understand you the argument: since it's theoretically not meant to be fired from the shoulder it can't qualify for shotgun (or rifle in the lower case) and therefore can only fall under the assault weapon code if it's a 'pistol.' NY has (perhaps cleverly) not defined 'pistol'. I suspect it would be a case of 'damned if you do, damned if you don't.' If you are using the pistol brace as intended you would probably have a hard time convincing the legal system that it wasn't a pistol by some sort of common definition.

But I do get that it's a bit of a legal soft spot.

 

Aye-cee-pee lol

 

I have looked at this and was never able to find anything that defines "pistol" per nys law. Logically a firearm such as you described should be legal, since it falls into the same undefined area as a pistol grip only shotgun, not a shotgun because it doesn't have a stock, but bought and sold without needing to going through the pistol permit process.

A at the federal level a pistol grip only shotgun, and the 'shotgun' you described would both be considered an 'other' for the purpose of completing the 4473.

I certainly seems legal in my opinion, but I have never acted on it because I am not sure I want to be the test case for such a rifle.

Eta: here is a link to a thread I started that is along the same line of thought.

http://nyfirearms.com/forums/ar-15/62643-safe-act-compliant-ar-15-maybe.html

 

NY does not really have a definition of pistol, handgun, etc. It does have some definitions for rifle and shotgun.

For laws about possession, the key term in NY is "firearm". A firearm in NY is lots of things - pretty much all handguns, anything that matches the AW definition, machine guns, some other stuff. Possession of a firearm is generally a crime unless you have an exemption - a firearm license (pistol permit) for instance.

For the federal laws, a firearm is basically any device that expels a projectile by means of chemical reaction. Interestingly, NY uses two definitions of "firearm" - one for possession (where firearms are handguns, AWs, etc) and a different definition for the laws governing sales (that is pretty much the same as the federal definition).

If you want to look this stuff up, most of the NY specific gun laws are in penal law 265, 400 and general business law 898.

 

So this has reinvigorated my desire for one of these guns.

Can anyone point me to any section of the law or any case law that explains why a pistol grip only shotgun is legal to own without a pistol permit in nys.

A pgo shotgun seems to be the only thing that falls into the same classification, of other, as the proposed weapon, and is already commonly bought and sold in ny state with out going through any special hoops to jump through. It seems like they must be exempt from being considered a pistol, and there for such an exemption would likely apply to thsee weapons

 

So this has reinvigorated my desire for one of these guns.

Well, there's a special deal going on now, if you decide to bite the shotshell. $1169 for the model with the folding stock. Let us know how it all turns out.

Use the code GA10 when ordering and get 10% off.

Interesting article and vid here:

Short Barrel-No Hassle-Black Aces - GunsAmerica Digest

"Before I go any further, let me make this clear. This is not an NFA weapon. There is no stamp required. This gun is legal in the ATF's eyes, but not every state feels the same. New York and California restrict the gun.The other 48 are good to go as long as you find an educated firearms dealer who is willing to transfer you the firearm. You may also want to carry a copy of the supplied ATF paperwork that comes with each gun in case you run into someone who is not convinced."

 

Crap, now I want one.

 

Yah, me too!!

"homing scope"...LOL

 

Two things I think we neee to keep in mind, and I have seen people loose sight of (or not know) in other threads.

1) It is common legal principle that words in a law are given their common ussual meaning unless they are specifically defined in the statute. New York Penal Law 265 and 400 (the parts on firearms) contain no special definition for "pistol" or "revolver" therefore they need to be understood in their normal meaning. It doesnt mean they have no definition and are a nullity. What would your non gun enthusiest cousin think it means? I realize many people here are well versed in texhnical details of firearms and can see all the grey area issues raised by NY's lack of an ultra detailed definition. If it is really a grey area then most likely it becomes a mater of fact for a jury to decide or perhaps a matter of law for a judge to sort out.

2) Definitions in law only apply within the piece of law they come from (or are specifically referenced to). NY PL 400 specifically refers to NY PL 265, so the definitions in 265 apply to those two sections. They do NOT apply to the hunting laws and regulations that have their own definitions. Likewise, the federal definitions have no bearing on the state laws. So in a NY crime for possession of firearm, it doesnt matter that federal law includes a bolt action 20 inch barrel rifle as a firearm. Although, when considering the normal meaning of an undefined term like 'pistol' I suppose the federal definition would be persuasive especially since it widely known in the industry.

Of course, a flint lock handgun was called a pistol too...
The interesting problem is that the assault weapon definition only applies to rifles, shotguns and pistols. So PL 265 clearly uses both pistol and revolver, therefore they must be two distinguishable things-- meaning a revolver can never be an assault weapon. But I guess the detachable magazine requirement may be at play anyway. Although I supose swapable cylanders for a revolver may meet the defintion of a magazine?

 

Hey all,

I have been lurking this forum for a while and have found some really great information in the past -- thanks for that. However, I just made an account to ask this question as I could not find the answer with a search.

What is the NYS legal definition of a pistol or handgun? I know the intricacies of federal laws, but I can't seem to find any working definition for what a 'pistol' is in NYS.

The reason I ask is because the SAFE act only covers rifles, shotguns and pistols (as we know). I've seen it posted here before, but never truly addressed: what NYS laws apply to GCA 'firearms' (not AWOs/NFA items)?

Many of you are familiar with the federal laws but I will attempt to break it down to help those whom do not. A good example is the Black Aces Tactical's "Pro Series 5 DT" -- it's an 8.5" barrel shotgun with a pistol grip and folding sig brace, and a forward grip. It's overall length is 27". The ATF deemed it a "firearm" (not a pistol, not a shotgun, not an AOW) and here's why:
-To be a shotgun, it must have (or have had) a stock installed. The sig brace does not count as a stock and these firearms started their lives as bare receivers.
-To be a pistol, it can't have a vertical forward grip.
-To be an AOW it must be concealable, and since it is over 26" in length, it is not concealable.
Thus according to the ATF it is just a 'firearm' as defined by the GCA. No tax stamp. No NFA laws. Small caveat that it should never be fired from the shoulder or attempted to be concealed on a person otherwise you're breaking a ton of laws.

As another hypothetical, why would the following be illegal in NYS: A semi auto uzi/mp5/SBR AR with a folding sig brace, >26" OAL (maybe a pinned muzzle device) and a VFG. The only reason I could think of would be pistol laws but I can't seem to even find what makes a pistol a 'pistol' in NYS.

Thanks guys.

Its funny you bring this up here as I am going through similar nonsense in Niagara County right now.

There is nothing in our written laws that says that an AR Pistol is illegal/restricted if built in compliance with the Safe Act. In Erie County (and many, if not all others) people are easily able add a lower receiver to their permit and build away. I purchased a lower last week and have run into a roadblock because "It could be built into an assault weapon".

I made the argument that it could be built into an assault weapon and NOT be on my permit much easier and that If I were trying to build something Illegal, like a criminal, I would not be adding it to my permit.

I am currently awaiting an answer from the permit office and all I can think of while I sit here, infringed upon, is how ignorant our system is. Just think about it. I just finished my 9 month wait to be granted permission to exercise my right and now I have to ask for permission to add a gun? What is wrong with this picture?