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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I hear many different ways that I can take my pistol to the range.
In a locked box unloaded with the ammo in a separate location.
Loaded concealed.
Unloaded concealed.
Which one is it ?
I have no problem keeping it in a lock box.
I just want to know what the law is.
Thanks in advance.
 

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No law covering this at all it is whatever policy your permit administrators come up with. Being so close to the hellhole that is NYC may change things but there is no state law mandating lock box etc. pretty much up to you. I myself ( live in an unrestricted county now but used to have target and hunting in my old county) would throw guns in a bag or box ( unloaded but not locked) and go on my way. If I was traveling to a rough section of town with my target guns ( some of my matches were in or required travel through some rough places) I would also carry concealed and loaded a defensive gun. The only way anyone finds out is by using your concealed gun or during a police interaction which probably means you did something wrong anyway. Obey traffic laws is the number one issue there
 

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I hear many different ways that I can take my pistol to the range.
In a locked box unloaded with the ammo in a separate location.
Loaded concealed.
Unloaded concealed.
Which one is it ?
I have no problem keeping it in a lock box.
I just want to know what the law is.
Thanks in advance.
From your dwelling directly to/from the range, ok on your person loaded, concealed, with a max of 7 rounds.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I called the Westchester pistol permit office just to make sure.
What I believe to be a female Westchester detective answered the call.
She told me what Lower Hudson Trainer and cranberry said.
On ones person concealed and loaded was allowed.
No stops allowed, she didn't elaborate.
I didn't want to push my luck and ask about gas and bathroom stops.
 

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I called the Westchester pistol permit office just to make sure.
What I believe to be a female Westchester detective answered the call.
She told me what Lower Hudson Trainer and cranberry said.
On ones person concealed and loaded was allowed.
No stops allowed, she didn't elaborate.
I didn't want to push my luck and ask about gas and bathroom stops.
Keep in mind, again, this is all administrative stuff. As you asked about the law, there is no such thing as a restricted permit under the law. You have the same rights as a "full carry permit" in the eyes of the law.
 

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Keep in mind, again, this is all administrative stuff. As you asked about the law, there is no such thing as a restricted permit under the law. You have the same rights as a "full carry permit" in the eyes of the law.
Regrettably, no he does not have the same rights as a full carry permit, because the courts have never upheld that, and it is judges who are placing those administrative restrictions on people's permits. Because if something happens where he interacts with LE in a negative way, or where is is (for example) injured and needs to be transported by EMS to WC medical center (for example), they ("the law") will revoke his permit if they wish, for carrying outside of the conditions stipulated on the permit.

Yes, I have seen it happen before. Your argument while great in theory, has hardly ever held up to scrutiny in the real world.

I have to be e negative Nelly, but that is what it is.

LMT
 

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Man...seems like most permits are restricted down there. As much as I don't like NYS in general, I'm soooooooo glad that I don't live downstate. I really feel for you guys down that way.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I would never carry outside of my restriction.
In fact I plan to carry it in a locked box unloaded with ammo separate.
I would like that new Sportsman permit that Westchester county is now giving out so I can legally
carry without saying I'm target when I'm wondering around my brothers and uncles property upstate.
 

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Man...seems like most permits are restricted down there. As much as I don't like NYS in general, I'm soooooooo glad that I don't live downstate. I really feel for you guys down that way.
Don' kid yourself there's plenty of upstate counties that restrict.
 

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Ill attempt to interpret what darth said. Legally you cannot be convicted of a crime for carrying outside your restrictions. So legally it is the same in that regard. BUT since there are restrictions the issuing judge can revoke your permit if he chooses.

Regrettably, no he does not have the same rights as a full carry permit, because the courts have never upheld that, and it is judges who are placing those administrative restrictions on people's permits. Because if something happens where he interacts with LE in a negative way, or where is is (for example) injured and needs to be transported by EMS to WC medical center (for example), they ("the law") will revoke his permit if they wish, for carrying outside of the conditions stipulated on the permit.

Yes, I have seen it happen before. Your argument while great in theory, has hardly ever held up to scrutiny in the real world.

I have to be e negative Nelly, but that is what it is.

LMT
 

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I would never carry outside of my restriction.
In fact I plan to carry it in a locked box unloaded with ammo separate.
I would like that new Sportsman permit that Westchester county is now giving out so I can legally
carry without saying I'm target when I'm wondering around my brothers and uncles property upstate.
That's your choice. Not sure what you would be doing that would require that question being asked, let alone answered, but I'm not one to judge. ;)

Sucks that you have a county that does that. Most, especially up here, don't.

A judge can revoke your permit for carrying anywhere for any reason, restricted or not, so that isn't even a really good reason.
 

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Ill attempt to interpret what darth said. Legally you cannot be convicted of a crime for carrying outside your restrictions. So legally it is the same in that regard. BUT since there are restrictions the issuing judge can revoke your permit if he chooses.
TheCelt, :)

Legally in Westchester County, you should not be convicted of a crime for carrying outside of your restrictions if you are otherwise not breaking the law.

One of the things I try to do, is to always phrase, structure and parse my written (and public spoken) words very carefully, as if these very words I type in a public forum can come back and be used to my benefit or against me in the future (hint). From my perspective, I've not made any attempts to interpret what Darth said, but to provide clarification to TopShot and anyone else in the process of getting a WC permit, while responding to Darth.

If I were the speculating kind, I might hypothesize (and please note this is just me thinking out loud, without any admitted inside knowledge of the machinations of what happens in Albany, or at the county level) that our fine governor might be, in the near future looking at ways to cement parts of his legacy, and use the "safe act" to justify arrests, and particularly to shine his dark light on pistol permit holders to justify passing more oppressive laws.

One of the things I recommend to anyone who carries a gun for self defense, is that they spend 2-3 hours sitting in the back of a court room (unarmed, of course :)) listening in on some of the routine trials that occur regularly, to get a feel for how "the system" works.
In the event any of us is involved in a shooting where the state brings charges against us, EVERY SINGLE DETAIL of your gun-life, and particularly every gun-related detail will come out, and be available for microscopic scrutiny. Most recent example is the case with Zimmerman - his guns, his training (during the trial he claimed to not having known the details about Florida's stand your ground law, the teacher from his criminal justice course testified that it was covered extensively in lecture), did he make adjustments to his trigger (he did not) - Does DNA evidence contradict Zimmerman? | HLNtv.com ). An earlier but more striking case is the Harold Fish trials.

It is great that we all understand bullet design & bullet trajectory, how to take down a Sig/H&K/Glock/etc; how to fight from the ground, how to slice the pie, great concealment holsters, stress inoculation, tunnel vision, situational awareness...I think it is equally important to understand "what comes next", and the level of scrutiny you will be subjected to following use of deadly physical force with our firearms ( a simultaneous endoscopy and colonoscopy are far more pleasant). The term "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" is oft tossed around, with few taking simple steps to ensure if it comes to that, the process of our fates being decided by 12 people "stupid enough" to not avoid jury duty is streamlined as much as possible to our advantage, just as we would plan and strategize on how to defend our homes or cars or loved ones to our advantage.

For the civil case (which is an almost surety in NY) in the aftermath of a shooting, the burden of proof is much lower than a criminal case.

When I train folks, I train them to not only fight thru that immediate violent physical act that they must win, but also for what comes next, down the road - the aftermath, the legal stuff, the stuff that makes you question yourself, possibly makes you want to eat your gun...the stuff where your own family members might publicly look you in the eye and tell you they love you, but privately wonder what kind of monster you are.

In a deadly force encounter (particularly in NY) you will find that you are merely resolving & exchanging a very immediate, time-compressed, acute problem with your tactics, skills and weaponry for a much more protracted, chronic, long term set of LEGAL problems where the state or your accusers have the luxury of time to dissect and microscopically examine what you ate, what you posted on a forum 3 years and 10,000 posts ago without those issues of having to make a snap judgement in 7-15 seconds.

I apologize for not having laid out my thoughts before in this manner - the assumption on my part again being that most folks here already know this stuff, due to the (very healthy, I might say) proliferation of attorneys on the boards.

In closing, remember that much of what I have written above is only my opinion, which is in part a distillation of my experience (1st hand or 3rd party) with the system. I am not an attorney, and even if I was an attorney, I aint yours. Nothing posted here should be construed as legal advice.

best regards TheCelt,
LHT
 

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i get what your saying 100% and couldnt agree more LHT. while I try to be careful what I say sometimes (because I realize this is a public forum for all the world to see) I also sometimes look at this place as if I was hanging out with friends in my backyard so I speak "off the cuff" sometimes. and I could certainly be guilty of making assumptions and inferences based on what people say because I have learned their "personalities" so to speak.

so in the instance with darth, I knew where he was coming from because Ive read his opinion on this topic many times before. however, if someone who was an unregistered guest was looking to find posts that could be spun to look negative they could; as there are posts that could be taken out of context because they are only looking at the written word and not that fact that people on here who are regular members build a type of "understanding" of one an other and in the effort of saving some typing will "short cut" the conversation.

and I would certainly never condone or promote any illegal activity ever (and Im quite careful about that) because I believe we have a greater responsibility in society as gun owners since we represent an entire community that is under very close scrutiny (especially nowadays).

additionally, Ill be looking forward to training with you down the road and learning as much as I can.
 

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Regrettably, no he does not have the same rights as a full carry permit, because the courts have never upheld that, and it is judges who are placing those administrative restrictions on people's permits. Because if something happens where he interacts with LE in a negative way, or where is is (for example) injured and needs to be transported by EMS to WC medical center (for example), they ("the law") will revoke his permit if they wish, for carrying outside of the conditions stipulated on the permit.

Yes, I have seen it happen before. Your argument while great in theory, has hardly ever held up to scrutiny in the real world.

I have to be e negative Nelly, but that is what it is.

LMT
You just proved Darthgamers point. It is legal.

The courts have the right to revoke your permit for any reason. Even with a full carry permit.

If you have a restricted permit, it is legal to carry outside of your restrictions.

If you're caught carrying outside your restrictions, will your permit be revoked? Maybe.

Can you be arrested for such? No.

Can you be ticketed for such? No.

Can you otherwise be fined for such? No.

...Legal, but frowned upon.
 

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You just proved Darthgamers point. It is legal.

The courts have the right to revoke your permit for any reason. Even with a full carry permit.

If you have a restricted permit, it is legal to carry outside of your restrictions.

If you're caught carrying outside your restrictions, will your permit be revoked? Maybe.

Can you be arrested for such? No.

Can you be ticketed for such? No.

Can you otherwise be fined for such? No.

...Legal, but frowned upon.
As with many things, just because it's legal doesn't mean that it's a good idea. I believe everyone when they say carrying outside of restrictions in not a criminal offense, but I won't be risking it when my permit finally comes through. I got "caught" printing when I lived in PA and thankfully it was another good guy who warned me. In Westchester if that were to happen while I pop into Starbucks for a coffee you just know it would be some cafe latte Mommy that starts shreiking and then calls the cops. In a free state you can laugh and go about your business. In this state you'd have the Gestapo at your door to confiscate your property. I hate the rules, but I plan on playing by them until I can help change them or move on to another game. That's just my take.
 

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You just proved Darthgamers point. It is legal.
Yes, it is legal, but this is not the point Darthgamers made, that I was responding to.

Here is what Darth said:
  1. Keep in mind, again, this is all administrative stuff.
  2. As you asked about the law, there is no such thing as a restricted permit under the law.
  3. You have the same rights as a "full carry permit" in the eyes of the law.
He has, essentially made three points.

1. restrictions on permits are administrative - I agree with this.
2. There is no such thing as a restricted permit under the law. I do not agree with this. Without going into detailed legal spiel, do you understand the difference between "de facto" and "de jure"? WC permits have been restricted for eons. There are a few counties in PA that will likewise only issue a restricted PA permit if your NYS permit is restricted. There are a few states that will not issue a non-resident permit if your only other permit is restricted.

3. You have the same rights as a "full carry permit" in the eyes of the law. - On this point, I likewise disagree, because the people who I know who administer the law (the police) , defend the law (or defend the defendants) - attorneys, and who adjudicate on the law (the judiciary) all utter statements on and off record contrary to this.

So my position was never if carrying on a restricted permit is "legal". Of course it is. My position was a rebuttal of his statement that a restricted permit has the same "rights" as a full carry permit -which it does not. If that is your position as well, both you and he are factually incorrect.

LHT
 

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Regrettably, no he does not have the same rights as a full carry permit, because the courts have never upheld that, and it is judges who are placing those administrative restrictions on people's permits. Because if something happens where he interacts with LE in a negative way, or where is is (for example) injured and needs to be transported by EMS to WC medical center (for example), they ("the law") will revoke his permit if they wish, for carrying outside of the conditions stipulated on the permit.

Yes, I have seen it happen before. Your argument while great in theory, has hardly ever held up to scrutiny in the real world.

I have to be e negative Nelly, but that is what it is.

LMT
LHT, you are 100% wrong. You absolutely can not have any criminal charges filed against you for carrying outside of restrictions. We have all "hear the story of it happening", but nobody has ever told the truth about them. People have come on to spread FUD, as you are doing, for some reason to get people to follow imaginary laws, but when questioned there is actually more to the story. The last thing we need in this state is more misinformation. To sum it up:

Restricted permits and "full carry" permits are the exact same thing in the eyes of the law. They both fall under article 400, section 2, type f:

" (f) have and carry concealed, without regard to employment or place of possession, by any person when proper cause exists for the issuance thereof; "

In the "real word", it HAS held up, and cases have been dismissed on this very issue because no such law exists.

You claim that it is up to the people that enforce the laws. Not only is that very untrue, let's ask them. From the NYSP:

"The Penal Law does not specifically authorize the placing of restrictions on pistol permits. However, court decisions have consistently supported the ability of licensing officials to impose these restrictions. Such an imposition is an administrative function of the licensing officer.

Licensees in violation of these restrictions would therefore not be subject to criminal prosecution but would face action being taken by the court of issuance in the form of suspension or possible revocation of the license."

Just as we said.

You can be as negative as you want, but please don't spread misinformation on this topic and deny people their rights based on your personal opinion, and certainly don't state that I am factually incorrect, when I have presented pertinent facts and you are talking about George Zimmerman. Let's worry about NYS law, not FL law.

 
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