[ECU Pirates]

The majority of the Hutu and the Tutsi are Christian. So the reason for genocide was not religion but more of a tribal dispute. "Generally, the Hutu-Tutsi strife stems from class warfare, with the Tutsis perceived to have greater wealth and social status (as well as favoring cattle ranching over what is seen as the lower-class farming of the Hutus). The Tutsis are thought to have originally come from Ethiopia, and arrived after the Hutu came from Chad." So yes Christians committed the killings but the reasons were not religion. They would fight even if they were all atheist.

 

[GuyMontag]

Religion was a major factor, clearly not the only one, but a LARGE part of the calculus.

To suggest that religion didn't play a significant role is not consistent with the facts.

When we start thinking of people in terms of groups, we're on the road to nowhere.

 

[meketrefe]

Islam is not the problem. Islamism is. A lot of muslins are sick of it too, for example many of the Punjabi people.

 

[GuyMontag]

Islam is not the problem. Islamism is. A lot of muslins are sick of it too, for example many of the Punjabi people.

Bingo!!

It would be like taking a census of our Congress, and concluding that these people are representative of most Americans.

Just because the crazies have control of the reigns (the same could be said for our government) it's not indicative of the whole picture.

 

[ECU Pirates]

Religion was a major factor, clearly not the only one, but a LARGE part of the calculus.

To suggest that religion didn't play a significant role is not consistent with the facts.

When we start thinking of people in terms of groups, we're on the road to nowhere.

Not what I would call a significant role but your opinion might vary.

"Though religious factors were not prominent (the event was ethnically motivated), in its 1999 report Human Rights Watch faulted a number of religious authorities in Rwanda, including Roman Catholic, Anglican, and other Protestants for failing to condemn the genocide directly - though that accusation was belied over time."

When we are talking about wars and genocide it's tough to not think of people in terms or groups. I see the person not the religion. However that would be more difficult in a war torn poor country. I think economic reasons are more of a factor than religious reasons in most of these conflicts/religious protests.

 

[stearn786]

One in four in this world are Muslim. If all Muslims were violent, wouldn't our planet be charred earth by now?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Islam. As someone who hates all religion, I can honestly say, without bias, that Islam is one of the worst, but to act as if violence is a fundamental part of the faith is dishonest. By fundamental, I'm not talking about what's encouraged in holy books, I'm talking about in practice. If we were talking about holy books, then you would also have to admit that violence is a fundamental part of Christian doctrine since the bible is rife with sanctioned violence.

I wasn't trying to imply that Muslims as a whole are violent. That would indeed be dishonest. I was saying that their "Prophet" demands that any insult to him or to Allah demands a violent response. The difference I see between Christianity and Islam is that if Muslims followed their Koran and their prophet to the letter, the planet probably would be charred earth by now. If Christians followed the Bible's teaching to the letter, the world would be a lot better. Not trying to make this a religious discussion per say, I just think Christianity as a whole is a lot more tolerant than Islam. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's what makes this country great.

 

[NirvanaFan]

I wasn't trying to imply that Muslims as a whole are violent. That would indeed be dishonest. I was saying that their "Prophet" demands that any insult to him or to Allah demands a violent response. The difference I see between Christianity and Islam is that if Muslims followed their Koran and their prophet to the letter, the planet probably would be charred earth by now. If Christians followed the Bible's teaching to the letter, the world would be a lot better. Not trying to make this a religious discussion per say, I just think Christianity as a whole is a lot more tolerant than Islam. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, that's what makes this country great.

You do realize the bible calls for the death of gays, non-believers in their god, people who have sex before marriage, people who curse their parents, adulterers, anybody who doesn't listen to a priest, and anybody who works on Sunday, among many other things right?

Seems like a pretty darn intolerant religion to me.

 

[RayKnobs]

. If Christians followed the Bible's teaching to the letter, the world would be a lot better..

You might want to reconsider that one.

 

[Kalva]

Islam is not the problem. Islamism is. A lot of muslins are sick of it too, for example many of the Punjabi people.

I agree, yet the rotten apples are brining down the whole orchard. The non-extreme muslins will need to start to stand up against them and push out those views of the fringe that gets all the press.

 

[Degenret]

^Right, I constantly find groups of American Christians raiding embassies, killing people, and demanding that laws in other countries be changed.

Oh wait, no I don't. Because it's completely culturally disconnected, and not part of the culture.

That being said, you're right in that there's morons in all faith. But these ones are pretty universal in theirs.

I didn't know I was on a gun board with a bunch of liberals.

So your definition of liberal is "people who try to think for themselves and know the truth". Interesting definition.

 

[stearn786]

You do realize the bible calls for the death of gays, non-believers in their god, people who have sex before marriage, people who curse their parents, adulterers, anybody who doesn't listen to a priest, and anybody who works on Sunday, among many other things right?

Seems like a pretty darn intolerant religion to me.

I was referring to the Bible as a whole, not just the Old Testament. The law in the Old Testament applied to the Israelite nation until Jesus came. When I said Christianity was tolerant I meant the New Testament teachings of Jesus. I should have said if every Christian followed the example Jesus set, the world would be a better place. My mistake

 

[GuyMontag]

ECU, I don't contest the tribal aspect, but please consider the following.

"The involvement of the churches, however, went far beyond the passive use of church buildings as death chambers. In some communities, clergy, catechists, and other church employees used their knowledge of the local population to identify Tutsi for elimination. In other cases, church personnel actively participated in the killing. The International War Crimes Tribunal for Rwanda convicted Elizaphan Ntakirutimana , a pastor in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, for encouraging Tutsi to assemble at his church in Kibuye Prefecture, then leading to the church a convoy of soldiers and civilian militia, who slaughtered some 8,000 Tutsi.7 In April 1998, a Rwandan court condemned to death two Catholic priests, Jean-François Kayiranga and Eduoard Nkurikiye , for luring people to Nyange parish, where soldiers and militia subsequently massacred them, then bringing in a bulldozer to demolish the church and bury alive any survivors. Prosecutors in Rwanda have accused Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka , the curé of Sainte Famille parish in Kigali, of turning over to death squads Tutsi who had sought refuge in his church. Survivors report that Munyeshyaka wore a flack jacket and carried a pistol and that he helped to select out sympathizers of the Rwandan Patriotic Front to be killed. According to some witnesses, he offered protection to women and girls who would sleep with him and turned over to death squads those who refused his advances."

 

[ECU Pirates]

You do realize the bible calls for the death of gays, non-believers in their god, people who have sex before marriage, people who curse their parents, adulterers, anybody who doesn't listen to a priest, and anybody who works on Sunday, among many other things right?

Seems like a pretty darn intolerant religion to me.

You do realize there is a difference between the new and old testaments?

 

[ECU Pirates]

ECU, I don't contest the tribal aspect, but please consider the following.

"The involvement of the churches, however, went far beyond the passive use of church buildings as death chambers. In some communities, clergy, catechists, and other church employees used their knowledge of the local population to identify Tutsi for elimination. In other cases, church personnel actively participated in the killing. The International War Crimes Tribunal for Rwanda convicted Elizaphan Ntakirutimana , a pastor in the Seventh-Day Adventist Church, for encouraging Tutsi to assemble at his church in Kibuye Prefecture, then leading to the church a convoy of soldiers and civilian militia, who slaughtered some 8,000 Tutsi.7 In April 1998, a Rwandan court condemned to death two Catholic priests, Jean-François Kayiranga and Eduoard Nkurikiye , for luring people to Nyange parish, where soldiers and militia subsequently massacred them, then bringing in a bulldozer to demolish the church and bury alive any survivors. Prosecutors in Rwanda have accused Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka , the curé of Sainte Famille parish in Kigali, of turning over to death squads Tutsi who had sought refuge in his church. Survivors report that Munyeshyaka wore a flack jacket and carried a pistol and that he helped to select out sympathizers of the Rwandan Patriotic Front to be killed. According to some witnesses, he offered protection to women and girls who would sleep with him and turned over to death squads those who refused his advances."

I understand, I just feel the ethnic/tribal issue was main reason for the conflict. I also don't think the war in Kosovo was mainly fought because or religion.

Anyone notice a trend here? Poor countries seem to engage in war crimes more often? I think economic issues not religious are the reasons for most of this nonsense. It's easier to influence someone who can't get enough food to eat!

 

[GuyMontag]

You do realize there is a difference between the new and old testaments?

We don't call it "old", we call it the "original"!

 

[NirvanaFan]

You do realize there is a difference between the new and old testaments?

I'm well aware of what each book details. Doesn't the bible include both testaments, or should we scrap the 10 commandments?

 

[GuyMontag]

I'm well aware of what each book details. Doesn't the bible include both testaments

Not all Bibles, mine doesn't.

 

[Temporaryscars]

I was referring to the Bible as a whole, not just the Old Testament. The law in the Old Testament applied to the Israelite nation until Jesus came. When I said Christianity was tolerant I meant the New Testament teachings of Jesus. I should have said if every Christian followed the example Jesus set, the world would be a better place. My mistake

I always laugh when Christians dismiss the old testament. Does that mean the 10 commandments are null and void?

By the way, in the new testament, Jesus says not one jot or tittle of the law would be changed. So your claim that "oh, that's just old testament stuff!" contradicts the word of your god.

Also, in the new testament, do you know whose name is mentioned more times than any other? Moses. From the old testament.

 

[Jeff]

^Right, I constantly find groups of American Christians raiding embassies, killing people, and demanding that laws in other countries be changed.

Like bombing a federal building in Oklahoma City?

 

[GuyMontag]

Also, in the new testament, do you know whose name is mentioned more times than any other? Moses. From the old testament.

Because Moses ROCKS!!!