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See my post in the News section. A person in the crowd yelled gun when the person was drawing something from a pocket or waist. In these situations you do have to think about the backstop. BOTH backstops. If he did have a gun and had a chance to fire at you or anywhere it would hit people then you would be forced to fire( if you weren't already hit yourself) and still have backstop issue of your own. More risk to people that way and a chance you would not be around to stop him from shooting more people
 

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See my post in the News section. A person in the crowd yelled gun when the person was drawing something from a pocket or waist. In these situations you do have to think about the backstop. BOTH backstops. If he did have a gun and had a chance to fire at you or anywhere it would hit people then you would be forced to fire( if you weren't already hit yourself) and still have backstop issue of your own. More risk to people that way and a chance you would not be around to stop him from shooting more people
Shoot because he might have a gun, and he might use it? Well hell, on that basis, everyone should go around shooting everyone else until only one person is left standing. Yea, that is exactly what you said. Holy crap, it scares me that you carry.
 

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So, here's MY questions...
1) How far away were they from the suspect
2) How stressful was the situation

Don't these people train with their firearms? is it really that hard to hit a human-sized target?
 

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What ever happened to waiting until the threat has actually been identified/confirmed (i.e. actually has a weapon) and is committing a felony where another's life is in danger??? Just because someone "looks" scary and is doing erratic things doesn't mean they should be shot (or shot at in this case). What's more, they MISSED completely - and hit others!!! Seems to me they need to spend a LOT more time training (marksmanship) and being trained as to when they should draw and fire their weapons... And these are the folks that are exempt from the SAFE act - for the rest of their lives!

(Side note - I'm not flaming all officers. I have a lot of LE friends that take their jobs very seriously and train on a frequent basis)
 

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Shoot because he might have a gun, and he might use it? Well hell, on that basis, everyone should go around shooting everyone else until only one person is left standing. Yea, that is exactly what you said. Holy crap, it scares me that you carry.
The guy had already picked up a cop and threw him into traffic. They not only believed he had a gun but was drawing it to shoot them. Someone in the crowd also believed it because they yelled he had a gun. If you really believed someone psycho was drawing a gun from his waist or pocket, would you wait until he actually shot someone? You or the bystander. Obviously you haven't been in that situation. Its not like on TV.
As for me, I have arrested numerous armed perpetrators without having to shoot. Have you wrestled a gun out of someone's hands before who is actually trying to kill you or just robbed someone? Have you been shot at in the civilian/LEO rules of engagement? Every situation is different. This appears that man wanted the police to believe that he had a gun. Suicide by cop. It could have been the rookie feared for his life where the veteran knew/ would have known that it wasn't gun. Who knows? Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. I wish I could take you to the F.A.T.S machine( a simulator) and see how you do. Many on this forum would be surprised by their performance. Many here would do well. And others would see how fast they would lose if it was real. You took what I said out of context. I said:

" In these situations you do have to think about the backstop. BOTH backstops. If he did have a gun and had a chance to fire at you or anywhere it would hit people then you would be forced to fire( if you weren't already hit yourself) and still have backstop issue of your own."

Nowhere did I say simple gun possession because he might try to draw it was enough to shoot in itself.
 

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The guy had already picked up a cop and threw him into traffic. They not only believed he had a gun but was drawing it to shoot them. Someone in the crowd also believed it because they yelled he had a gun. If you really believed someone psycho was drawing a gun from his waist or pocket, would you wait until he actually shot someone? You or the bystander. Obviously you haven't been in that situation. Its not like on TV.
As for me, I have arrested numerous armed perpetrators without having to shoot. Have you wrestled a gun out of someone's hands before who is actually trying to kill you or just robbed someone? Every situation is diferent. This appears that man wanted the police to believe that he had a gun. Suicide by cop. It could have been the rookie feared for his life where the veteran knew/ would have known that it wasn't gun. Who knows? Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
Article 35 and making sense are 2 different things. We have to follow it or risk going to prison.
 

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The guy had already picked up a cop and threw him into traffic. They not only believed he had a gun but was drawing it to shoot them. Someone in the crowd also believed it because they yelled he had a gun. If you really believed someone psycho was drawing a gun from his waist or pocket, would you wait until he actually shot someone? You or the bystander. Obviously you haven't been in that situation. Its not like on TV.
As for me, I have arrested numerous armed perpetrators without having to shoot. Have you wrestled a gun out of someone's hands before who is actually trying to kill you or just robbed someone? Every situation is diferent. This appears that man wanted the police to believe that he had a gun. Suicide by cop. It could have been the rookie feared for his life where the veteran knew/ would have known that it wasn't gun. Who knows? Monday morning quarterbacking is easy.
Truebeliever, I have never had to do your job and I respect you for your service, however, with no disrespect intended, I cannot agree with your position. These officers chose their profession and accepted the position in NYC of all places.

firmly believe that it is their responsibility to control the situation without resorting to shooting until there is absolutely no option left and even then to proceed with caution to provide for the safety of all bystanders. Did no one have a stun gun or other non-lethal option?

It's very funny to me how these wild shootings by police are always used as an excuse by some LE and Libs for denying citizens the right to carry in public. They always claim that suddenly shootouts will occur on every street corner like in the "wild west".
 

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In New York State, you can work at a police department for up to a year before you are required to go to the academy
 

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So, here's MY questions...
1) How far away were they from the suspect
2) How stressful was the situation

Don't these people train with their firearms? is it really that hard to hit a human-sized target?
shooting at a running human sized target, while under stress, is hard yes
 

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Truebeliever, I have never had to do your job and I respect you for your service, however, with no disrespect intended, I cannot agree with your position. These officers chose their profession and accepted the position in NYC of all places.

firmly believe that it is their responsibility to control the situation without resorting to shooting until there is absolutely no option left and even then to proceed with caution to provide for the safety of all bystanders. Did no one have a stun gun or other non-lethal option?

It's very funny to me how these wild shootings by police are always used as an excuse by some LE and Libs for denying citizens the right to carry in public. They always claim that suddenly shootouts will occur on every street corner like in the "wild west".
I agree with what a lot of what you just said. BUT

Tasers are not allowed to be carried by the rank and file officers. The community feels that they would abuse them. There was a police misuse of a stun gun case in 1980's. Certain Sergeants carry it but like in the last times square shooting, it wasn't available in time. A gun vs TASER. With a taser, it is hard to hit a moving target because both prongs have to embed themselves in the person for it to work. And it only has about a 21 foot range.
As for no other option, say they waited to determine it was gun, and he pulled the trigger as he drew. Someone else was going to get shot. This wasn't a barricaded hostage situation where they could clear the streets. Someone would have been shot if he had gotten a round off. That's what I mean by both backstops. Not just the cops there but the people who were behind them.
Also, Remember action is always faster then reaction. Thats why baseball players at bat have to start their swings before they actually see the ball leave the pitchers hand. If someone is drawing a gun from a pocket with speed, it is almost impossible to determine for sure what the object is before a shoot/ no shoot decision could be made before that person could get off a shot. A tie score when in actual gun fights means you lost. Both of you get shot. The good guys or an innocent person loses.
 

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I chose to be a fireman and I am mad because I have to deal with fires. When I just start splattering poodles against walls with my firehose, people get all in my business and be like "he wasn't even on fire!" He barked. Sounded like "fire" to me.
 

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Kelly's 12lb trigger requirement doesn't help.

My cousin loves shooting my Glock because he thinks the trigger is hilarious. After a few mags from mine, we switch to his stock civilian model and our accuracy goes up exponentially.

Hopefully the next police commissioner is willing to address this issue.
 

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The 12 pound safety trigger that NYC installs on the guns might have also played a minor role. Shooting qualification slow fire and at a stationary target with one is a completely different scenario than while running, under stress, in crowded times square. Think about it, you're nervous, you get a good sight picture (HOPEFULLY) and you go to squeeze that mack truck of a trigger back, flinch a little bit and hit someone in the leg because the trigger is too heavy and breaks upon the flinch. IMO glock has the right idea with the 5.5 pound trigger. Enough to not accidentally discharge while not too heavy as to impinge on accuracy during a stressful situation. We're all gun people here, and with a handgun especially, trigger control is everything. People spend hundreds of dollars on new triggers to boost accuracy.

Don't take this the wrong way, there was a lot of questionable facts about this one scenario, but this also isnt the first time the NYPD has hit bystanders. I think its something that needs to be addressed.
 

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Truebeliever, I have never had to do your job and I respect you for your service, however, with no disrespect intended, I cannot agree with your position. These officers chose their profession and accepted the position in NYC of all places.

firmly believe that it is their responsibility to control the situation without resorting to shooting until there is absolutely no option left and even then to proceed with caution to provide for the safety of all bystanders. Did no one have a stun gun or other non-lethal option?

It's very funny to me how these wild shootings by police are always used as an excuse by some LE and Libs for denying citizens the right to carry in public. They always claim that suddenly shootouts will occur on every street corner like in the "wild west".
"Walk a mile in my shoes, see what I see, feel what I feel, THEN maybe you'll understand why I do what I do, Until then, Don't judge me!" You guys pass judgment so quickly without being there or having any experience in a real life situation as describe and when someone like truebeliever gives you insight, you disregard it and think you know better. These anti-2A people do the same thing when they make up scenarios and excuses why you should have the right to carry. You get mad at them, but they think they know better than you. You are no better, if not more ignorant than them. Unless you have been in that situation or were an eyewitness on the scene, how can you pass judgment or think you'd have done it better. We as gun owners will never get anywhere when people pass judgment without knowing the facts, but you do the same thing when it's convenient. Yea, they chose to serve and protect, and you chose to hide behind them.
 

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Yes, the first place I'd hide in a shooting is away from the NYPD, preferably behind, out of their line of sight.
 

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So, here's MY questions...
1) How far away were they from the suspect
2) How stressful was the situation

Don't these people train with their firearms? is it really that hard to hit a human-sized target?
It was stressful. Especially that I believe the cops involved with actual shooting were fresh out of the academy. As for hitting the target, I don't think there is enough moving target or shooter moving/shooting training. The perpetrator was moving and had already thrown a cop into traffic. I don't know if a veteran would have or not have fired a shot or hit him if he had. In real life, most times the gun battles are less than 7 feet away and most rounds do not hit their intended target. One instructor I had actually stated that it might be better to keep moving and make distance between you and the perpetrator than try to seek cover if the bullets are already flying and you don't have cover already. Then he took us on the simunitions course and proved what he said.
 

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Poor bystanders...when will people learn that it's not healthy to bystand in NYC.
 

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I wonder if there is any footage of him drawing the alleged finger gun. Seems to be an easy way for the NYPD to cover their a$$. I have not read much about this but the video seemed to show the vast majority of the cops were not in fear of a gun. They were chasing that guy around all over the place.Once again the cops can do no wrong crowd here will say this was justified. Just because you share the same profession doesn't mean you can't say they (or one officer) messed up. NYPD can do no wrong to some on this forum it seems. Unarmed suspect shot at and two innocents shot. That can't be justified by the "walk a mile in my shoes" line. Was it only one rookie who shot?
 
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