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So I know this guy. I've known him about 4 years. We've hung out a bunch, we have similar hobbies, we talk about various things. He tells me he's working on the paperwork to get his CCW permit. He wants me to sign for him.

In the past I've seen him threaten people with a taser (and think it's funny). He's waved pepper spray around as well (didn't actually use it). He's got a nasty temper; loses his cool relatively easy. He tells me if he saw someone breaking into his car, he'd shoot them. I pointed out that he'd be on losing legal ground on this as he's not afraid for his life, just protecting property. He's mentioned that he'd shoot through walls to shoot at someone in his house if he thought they might be a burglar. I've pointed out the dangers of this as well.

So, here's the question; do I sign his paperwork and tell the deputy (assuming I get a call) that he's not a good choice to get his permit, or do I not sign and make him find someone else to sign instead? Is it a "jerk move" to sign only to hamstring him? Is it more responsible to be the guy to "rat him out"?
 

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From the sound of it, he shouldn't have a gun. If you're not comfortable signing for him, don't. Just my opinion.
 

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I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
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You have to do what you think is right. Ask yourself knowing what you know would you feel any guilt if you didnt sign and he got his permit and unjustifiably killed someone. I do see where you are coming from though not wanting to be a rat. The easy answer is to sign and tell the investigator but that is the easy answer because I dont have to deal with the back lash. Good luck with whatever you do but since your asking I think your looking for that added push to be a reference and tell the truth so that is probably what you should do.
 

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A few things, one is, while I can't say I would do this, isn't burglary (stealing from a car) justified?

Code:
[FONT=monospace]2.  A  person  in  possession  or control of any premises, or a person[/FONT]
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical  forceupon  another  person  when  he  or  she  reasonably believes such to benecessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes  tobe  the  commission  or  attempted  commission by such other person of acriminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree  ofphysical  force,  other  than  deadly  physical  force,  which he or shereasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, [U][I][B]and may use deadlyphysical force in order  to  prevent  or  terminate  the  commission  orattempted  commission  of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or inthe course of  a  burglary  or  attempted  burglary,  as  prescribed  insubdivision three.[/B][/I][/U]
Also, I know we are supposed to be good people and say "No way, he shouldn't have a gun", but being open minded I have to say "Who are you to decide what rights this man gets?" Look at a free state. You wouldn't be the one telling him what he can and cannot do. That is NY Bull right there. What if you were secretly racist or sexist? "Uh yeah, I don't think my neighbor should have a gun because he/she is a female/black/asian/white/Indian, etc." I know this is a different viewpoint, but that is just haw I feel.
 

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So I know this guy. I've known him about 4 years. We've hung out a bunch, we have similar hobbies, we talk about various things. He tells me he's working on the paperwork to get his CCW permit. He wants me to sign for him.

In the past I've seen him threaten people with a taser (and think it's funny). He's waved pepper spray around as well (didn't actually use it). He's got a nasty temper; loses his cool relatively easy. He tells me if he saw someone breaking into his car, he'd shoot them. I pointed out that he'd be on losing legal ground on this as he's not afraid for his life, just protecting property. He's mentioned that he'd shoot through walls to shoot at someone in his house if he thought they might be a burglar. I've pointed out the dangers of this as well.

So, here's the question; do I sign his paperwork and tell the deputy (assuming I get a call) that he's not a good choice to get his permit, or do I not sign and make him find someone else to sign instead? Is it a "jerk move" to sign only to hamstring him? Is it more responsible to be the guy to "rat him out"?
NO!
 

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I am looking for my fourth person to vouch for me right now. I would hope if the other three I have so far did not think I was a good citizen and made good choices, they would just tell me NO, and not throw me under the bus. I am sure they wouldn't considering they are all x-military and law enforcement and it would look badly on them to even sign those papers in the first place. AS IT WOULD FOR YOU.
 

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I am looking for my fourth person to vouch for me right now. I would hope if the other three I have so far did not think I was a good citizen and made good choices, they would just tell me NO, and not throw me under the bus. I am sure they wouldn't considering they are all x-military and law enforcement and it would look badly on them to even sign those papers in the first place. AS IT WOULD FOR YOU.
I assume you are the guy he is talking about? If you have a bad temper and treat firearms like toys then no I would not sign for you either.

James
 

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I think with either scenario that you mentioned above, you will end up having to discuss this topic with your friend / acquaintance before agreeing to sign, or declining to do so. I'm not familiar with the Monroe County application process, but I would find out if Monroe County actually calls all references given on an application. Would you have the opportunity to inform them of this person's behavioral issues if you thought it was necessary? I ask that, because I do not believe any of my references were contacted when I received my permit in Wayne County.

In my opinion, if you don't feel this person is in the right frame of mind and could be a danger to themselves and the community in general, I would not sign for them. By you not signing, it might be a wake up call for him.

Either way you are in an awkward position, and the best thing may be to call the investigating officer / department if this person goes ahead with their permit application, whether you're a reference or not. I wouldn't consider you as being a jerk or a rat. There are enough people out there with illegally-obtained firearms (and unfortunately some legal owners), that are damaging our cause and giving more reason to overzealous politicians to restrict the 2A rights of us who are responsible and legal owners. No offense, but this guy doesn't sound like he's out to help us in any way.

Good luck.
 

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A few things, one is, while I can't say I would do this, isn't burglary (stealing from a car) justified?

Code:
[FONT=monospace]2.  A  person  in  possession  or control of any premises, or a person[/FONT]
licensed or privileged to be thereon or therein, may use physical  forceupon  another  person  when  he  or  she  reasonably believes such to benecessary to prevent or terminate what he or she reasonably believes  tobe  the  commission  or  attempted  commission by such other person of acriminal trespass upon such premises. Such person may use any degree  ofphysical  force,  other  than  deadly  physical  force,  which he or shereasonably believes to be necessary for such purpose, [U][I][B]and may use deadlyphysical force in order  to  prevent  or  terminate  the  commission  orattempted  commission  of arson, as prescribed in subdivision one, or inthe course of  a  burglary  or  attempted  burglary,  as  prescribed  insubdivision three.[/B][/I][/U]
Also, I know we are supposed to be good people and say "No way, he shouldn't have a gun", but being open minded I have to say "Who are you to decide what rights this man gets?" Look at a free state. You wouldn't be the one telling him what he can and cannot do. That is NY Bull right there. What if you were secretly racist or sexist? "Uh yeah, I don't think my neighbor should have a gun because he/she is a female/black/asian/white/Indian, etc." I know this is a different viewpoint, but that is just haw I feel.
I believe the portion of law that you quoted only allows for the use of deadly physical force in order to prevent arson.

I would just tell him I wouldn't sign as a reference. I have my own personal reasons though not to be a reference.
 

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We all know people that talk tough and and fly off the handle quickly. It is a defense mechanism, if a person flys off the handle verbally for 20 seconds then is calm for the rest of the day is he a threat with a gun? No I do not believe so, yelling about something is completely different than pulling a gun and shooting it. I would much rather see someone expell that emotion verbally than to keep it bottled up. Does this guy have a Taser or just talk about tazing people? I thought tasers were illegal in the People's Republic of NY (PRNY)? Talking is just that, talking, have you ever seen him get angry and go after someone? If not why do you think he would, just because he says he would? I tell my boy all the time to keep his cool in public because one day he will apply for his pistol permit and someone may remember him saying "I want to kick that guys ass" and then the PRNY would deny his permit. Then he would have to move to a free state to get a pistol.

Bottom line if you don't feel comfortable don't sign, if you do sign and you stab him in the back when it comes to an interview, I would not trust you in the foxhole next to me. We have terms for those people in the military and most of them you would not want to be known by.
 

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My yard stick for whether I would be a reference or not is if I trust the person with my child under their supervision. I guess that gives me a 0% tolerence view. Personally I wouldn't let this guy watch my kid.

Another part of this is do you take the role and passively just decline...or do you take an active role and say yes...so you can inform the authorities of your true view. It is a tough call if you really believe this guy could be a danger.

FYI Monroe County did call all of my references and has for anyone I know
 

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If you need to ask yourself if you should be a reference then the answer is NO. I have signed for a few friends and have never questioned if it is the right thing to do. If you cant easily say you would trust him I say you should gracefully say NO. MY .02 cents
 

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The artist formerly known as jhm8071
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Not all references get called for applications outside the city. My 4th reference didn't get a call. My wife didn't even speak with the investigator either.

I would decline being a reference if I didn't feel comfortable. Ask yourself if you would be comfortable with him having a pistol. If you truly believe he would shoot someone through a wall if he thought they were robbing him, or if he would shoot someone when having road rage, then decline being a reference. Say that you take the situation very seriously, and you've only known him for 4 years. Maybe tell him that 4 years isn't long enough for you to make such a serious opinion on someone.

You could always try and go to a pre-licensing class they have at different places that talk about laws, methods of carry, and more stuff. Maybe having that info from a respected source will make him get serious about it.
 

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Generally it's implied that you'll vouch (positive comments only) for someone if you agree to be a reference. Personally, I would respectfully decline with a simple "no".
 

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So I know this guy. I've known him about 4 years. We've hung out a bunch, we have similar hobbies, we talk about various things. He tells me he's working on the paperwork to get his CCW permit. He wants me to sign for him.

In the past I've seen him threaten people with a taser (and think it's funny). He's waved pepper spray around as well (didn't actually use it). He's got a nasty temper; loses his cool relatively easy. He tells me if he saw someone breaking into his car, he'd shoot them. I pointed out that he'd be on losing legal ground on this as he's not afraid for his life, just protecting property. He's mentioned that he'd shoot through walls to shoot at someone in his house if he thought they might be a burglar. I've pointed out the dangers of this as well.

So, here's the question; do I sign his paperwork and tell the deputy (assuming I get a call) that he's not a good choice to get his permit, or do I not sign and make him find someone else to sign instead? Is it a "jerk move" to sign only to hamstring him? Is it more responsible to be the guy to "rat him out"?
Just be honest with your friend and tell him you can't help him. He will have more respect for you and you won't alienate him if you gave him a negative character reference and he finds out about it. Yes, all this public information.
 

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We all know people that talk tough and and fly off the handle quickly. It is a defense mechanism, if a person flys off the handle verbally for 20 seconds then is calm for the rest of the day is he a threat with a gun? No I do not believe so, yelling about something is completely different than pulling a gun and shooting it. I would much rather see someone expell that emotion verbally than to keep it bottled up. Does this guy have a Taser or just talk about tazing people? I thought tasers were illegal in the People's Republic of NY (PRNY)? Talking is just that, talking, have you ever seen him get angry and go after someone? If not why do you think he would, just because he says he would? I tell my boy all the time to keep his cool in public because one day he will apply for his pistol permit and someone may remember him saying "I want to kick that guys ass" and then the PRNY would deny his permit. Then he would have to move to a free state to get a pistol.

Bottom line if you don't feel comfortable don't sign, if you do sign and you stab him in the back when it comes to an interview, I would not trust you in the foxhole next to me. We have terms for those people in the military and most of them you would not want to be known by.

The polite term for doing something like that is TWO-FACED BACK STABBER and I have seen that happen with pistol permit applications.
 

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If you need to ask yourself if you should be a reference then the answer is NO. I have signed for a few friends and have never questioned if it is the right thing to do. If you cant easily say you would trust him I say you should gracefully say NO. MY .02 cents
Very wise IMO. The question isn't whether he should have a permit, the question is do you feel comfortable being a reference. I think the OP answered his own question.
 

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My friends do stuff so stupid I want to strangle them sometimes.

UH-OH, BETTER TAKE MY GUNS AWAY!

This is why the free states laugh at us.
 

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My friends do stuff so stupid I want to strangle them sometimes.

UH-OH, BETTER TAKE MY GUNS AWAY!

This is why the free states laugh at us.
We don't laugh and we're not free. We have just been afforded a few more "rights" (I hate that word) by the Kings we have chosen to rule over us.

Maybe I should say I don't laugh. The one's that laugh do not understand their feudal duties to the system they love so much.
 
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