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3K views 34 replies 15 participants last post by  OwnTheRide 
#1 ·
I have talked to a NYSP Officer whom is ALSO a 01FFL holder about a 03FFL buying from individuals. He stated that the law allows ANY 03FFL to purchase qualifying firearms directly from the individual. No 01FFL is required for FTF transactions as the sale is TO a FFL as the law states. Take it for what it's worth, but seeing as how this guy is who he is and is telling me this, I'm taking it as it's 100% correct!! I was under the impression that ALL sales had to go through a 01FFL .... he said "NOPE!! The sale has to be TO or through a FFL but you're only good to go on C&R qualifying firearms. Keep to that and keep it legal and there will be no problems." I simply replied ... OK!!
 
#8 ·
I'm not sure about the state law but he is wrong at the federal level. The 03 is meant to collect and enhance your collection not a dealer in firearms. So buying and selling c&r firearns requires an 01. Now if you had 30 nagants you have collected over the years and are selling them off I think its perfectly fine selling off your collection but if you are using AIM surplus to turn and burn c&r firearms then you are acting as an 01 and dealing in firearms and need the appropriate license. So whatever he believes is legal at the state level is illegal at the federal.
 
#9 ·
So just for clarification.....Say a person owns 5 C&R rifles and a hardship occurs.....You can't legally sell your rifles ?
 
#13 ·
Pat Burns is gunsnammo.com, a nys resident(long island) and a private seller of C&R rifles. When I previously had my 03 I bought quite a few rifles from her. My 03 was on file with her and since our transaction was within nys, she would send me a copy of her drivers license each time.
But since the passage of the unsafe act, I was questioning the validity of what the trooper said in relation to me buying from a private seller. Their would'nt be a requirement for the 4473 cuz I'm purhasing a C&R(03) eligible rifle.
 
#16 ·
This seems like an appropriate time to read the law itself. From General Business Article 39-DDD:

§ 898. Private sale or disposal of firearms, rifles and shotguns.
1. In addition to any other requirements pursuant to state and federal law, all sales, exchanges or disposals of firearms, rifles or shotguns shall be conducted in accordance with this section unless such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, as those terms are defined in 18 USC § 922, when such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted pursuant to that person's federal firearms license or such sale, exchange or disposal is between members of an immediate family.
01FFL is a licensed dealer/gunsmith.
02FFL is a licensed pawn dealer.
03FFL is a licensed collector of curios & relics.
06FFL is a licensed manufacturer of ammunition.
07FFL is a licensed manufacturer and possibly dealer.
(I'll leave off other types of FFLs since they're more rare).

Now, let's look at the relevant exemptions from the requirements of the remainder of this section (BGC, records, etc):

"unless such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, as those terms are defined in 18 USC § 922, when such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted pursuant to that person's federal firearms license or such sale"

So we clearly have three definitions to look up. 18 USC §922 (actually, §921) carries the following definitions for the above-highlighted items:

(9) The term "importer" means any person engaged in the business of importing or bringing firearms or ammunition into the United States for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed importer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
(10) The term "manufacturer" means any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution; and the term "licensed manufacturer" means any such person licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
11) The term "dealer" means
(A) any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail,

(B) any person engaged in the business of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms, or

(C) any person who is a pawnbroker. The term "licensed dealer" means any dealer who is licensed under the provisions of this chapter.
I do not think the law could have been much clearer. Only licensed importers, dealers, and manufacturers are exempt from the BGC/transfer requirements of the SAFE act. An 03FFL is none of those. As such, any in-state transfer between two parties where one or both is an 03FFL must go through the BGC/transfer process.

It seems to me that many get tripped up on the part that follows what I outlined in red: "when such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted pursuant to that person's federal firearms license or such sale." Let's be clear: this portion is not saying that anyone with any type of FFL is exempt. All that this portion says is "when the sale is performed under the FFL of the aforementioned importer/dealer/manufacturer."

I have no dog in this fight. I am not a lawyer or an FFL. My opinion is no more or less valid than that of the nearest LEO.
 
#17 ·
This seems like an appropriate time to read the law itself. From General Business Article 39-DDD:

01FFL is a licensed dealer/gunsmith.
02FFL is a licensed pawn dealer.
03FFL is a licensed collector of curios & relics.
06FFL is a licensed manufacturer of ammunition.
07FFL is a licensed manufacturer and possibly dealer.
(I'll leave off other types of FFLs since they're more rare).

Now, let's look at the relevant exemptions from the requirements of the remainder of this section (BGC, records, etc):

"unless such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer, as those terms are defined in 18 USC § 922, when such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted pursuant to that person's federal firearms license or such sale"

So we clearly have three definitions to look up. 18 USC §922 (actually, §921) carries the following definitions for the above-highlighted items:

I do not think the law could have been much clearer. Only licensed importers, dealers, and manufacturers are exempt from the BGC/transfer requirements of the SAFE act. An 03FFL is none of those. As such, any in-state transfer between two parties where one or both is an 03FFL must go through the BGC/transfer process.

It seems to me that many get tripped up on the part that follows what I outlined in red: "when such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted pursuant to that person's federal firearms license or such sale." Let's be clear: this portion is not saying that anyone with any type of FFL is exempt. All that this portion says is "when the sale is performed under the FFL of the aforementioned importer/dealer/manufacturer."

I have no dog in this fight. I am not a lawyer or an FFL. My opinion is no more or less valid than that of the nearest LEO.
But if you have a 03FFL a background check was already done on you. Preapproved so to speak
 
#18 · (Edited)
Right now, as I type this, I'm on hold with the state licensing center to see if the SAFE Act has indeed made the 03FFL useless in NYS. At first ... the person on the SAFE ACT Hotline didn't answer my question for at least 45 seconds ... nothing but silence and they then transferred me to the pistol permit licensing center. They had stated that my question about the 03FFL buying directly from the seller within the state should be directed to the ATF .... I replied .... "This is a question directly related to the SAFE Act since it appears this law has made my 03FFL useless inside this state and has stripped me of the privileges granted to me by the Federal Govt as I'm a law abiding citizen worthy of holding a FFL of any kind and this is a question that needs to be answered on the state level as it's at the state level that my 03FFL appears to be not recognized." I'll add more to this as my questions are answered.


Well .... they told me that "We are for pistol permits and dealer applications." and I said "I completely understand that and I'm not sure why I was transferred to your department by the NYS SAFE Act hotline." The nice woman in the pistol permit licensing center said she'll have a Lieutenant contact me in regards to the 03FFL in NYS. So ... the waiting game begins.
 
#19 ·
So yes, unless this state law gets tossed out or changed the Federal 03 FFL is more of an encumbrance than an advantage in NY. Since you now need to go through an 01 for everything AND log everything yourself as well.

I guess you can still get discounts from Midway or Brownell's so maybe it isn't useless. You also can use your 01 out of state if I am not mistaken so I guess it isn't completely useless.
 
#20 · (Edited)
LMFAO ... OK .... I'm done stirring the pot. Hahaha. Actually I keep my book the way it should be kept and I know what you say to be true. ;) I'm a Chicken afterall and I like ruffling feathers!! Anyways, I'm wanting to know WHY us 03FFL holders have no exemption from this law as far as acquiring qualifying firearms from anyone other than a 01FFL. We are, afterall, federally recognized as law abiding citizens. That's what I'm after. Now ... I'm going to clean this up because it's going to start a ****storm about book keeping instead of staying on topic. LMFAO ... my fault for even starting it. Hahahahahaa Bad CHICKEN!!! BAD!!!!
 
#21 ·
Looks like you cleaned a bit too much, Chicken - you removed my reply to doubleeddy's most recent post :(

Edit... wow. You went way overboard... if this is what you do to threads you start, remind me to not waste time contributing.
 
#23 · (Edited)
You are correct OwnTheRide!! I completely agree with you. I apologize ... let me go back and see if I can get them back. My computer has been slow and it's lagging badly so I clicked a few replies and nothing happened then te screen moved around and ... welll ... now you see the results. Let me see what I can get back here. (it also removed some of my posts and other that I didn't want gone too!!)

EDIT: I have to reboot ... and I'm not seeing the damn deleted post!! Please ... by all means, resubmit your posts. I apologize for the inconvenience. All problems are on my end here. Is anyone else having issues on the forum?? I'm lagging REALLY bad like to the point that the background is white and it takes about 20 seconds for the background color to showup. :mad:
 
#22 · (Edited)
OK .... read this and take it AS TRUTH!! I JUST got off the phone with the ATF office in Buffalo NY. NYS recognizes the 03FFL!! We can LEGALLY obtain ANY C&R qualifying gun DIRECTLY from the individual WITHOUT a 01FFL transfer whether it be shipped to us or a FTF transaction!! We whom hold a 03FFL are NOT considered to be part of a private sale as were are considered a licensee. NOW .... I brought up something in this thread about logging guns in from a 01FFL that are also C&R eligible. IF YOU FILL OUT A 4473 AT THE 01FFL for that firearm, YOU DO NOT ENTER IT ON YOUR BOOKS PERIOD!! This has come FROM THE ATF BUFFALO NY OFFICE DIRECTLY. Any gun deemed C&R eligible and IS NOT considered and AW that you may have purchased WITHOUT the 4473 being done on you while holding a C&R license MUST BE LOGGED IN. SO ..... we now have a definite answer and I will be renewing my C&R after hearing that WE ARE A FFL when it comes to transactions of C&R firearms!! YIPPIE!!!! ;)
 
#24 ·
I don't want to be Debbie Downer, but I would not rely on the ATF to interpret NYS law, particularly when discussing a transaction that takes place solely in-state. Of course, the reality is that the ATF is the only agency that would have any way of finding out that you'd done such a transfer without a BGC, and since they see no issue, they wouldn't report anything to the state.

As for the deleted posts - mistakes happen. No issues with the forum for me today.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I see nothing there that goes against what I perceived the C&R as and what those that I've talked to have stated as well. Also, that letter is nearly 14 years old. If you're referring to the part where it says you must enter all C&R guns acquired under the 03FFL, that would be correct ... I think MANY people misunderstand the terminology. Acquire means you are receiving the firearm without having a BGC done on you. (i.e.- buying from a distributor or an individual of which neither will perform a BGC on you upon purchase.) The examples are perfect examples of you acquiring a C&R firearm under your 03FFL which MUST be logged in. If the dealer does a BGC on you and you buy a gun deemed C&R, you did not ACQUIRE THAT FIREARM ON YOUR LICENSE .... you bought a gun. That's it and nothing more. I'll call them tomorrow and request this in writing along with the same info from the NYSP about purchases. I will scan and post it here when I receive it for all to print. ;)
 
#28 ·


NO. Acquiring means from any source. Any C&R weapon from ANY source needs to be logged after you get your C&R FFL.

Like I said before there is not "acquiring on your license"- You are a licensee- Any C&R rifle or pistol you get from any source after you are licensed HAS to be logged. Regardless if you get it from an 01 FFL, Buddah, you find it in your hayloft- whatever.
 
#30 ·
§ 898...unless such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted by a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer... when such sale, exchange or disposal is conducted pursuant to that person's federal firearms license
I agree with poster OwnTheRide. There is really no ambiguity here; licensed collectors have NOT been exempted from BGC requirements. The ATF office in Buffalo has given you erroneous advice.

Please let us know if the NYSP Lieutenant contacts you and what he says.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I will kindly disagree. I now have 4 different 01FFL's, all of whom had their 03FFL's prior to getting their 01FFL's, that are telling me that what you're posting, even though it is on paper from 2006, is incorrect so I'll contact the ATF Headquarters and see if there is something newer than 2006 on this issue. I'm getting what I've been told by the ATF agent in Buffalo in writing and I will post it when I get it. As soon as I hear back from the Lieutenant, I will post here as to what he says about purchases of C&R qualifying guns from individuals.


There may be something they know that we, us, I don't know about. I even went and got all of the booklets and paperwork given to me when I received my FFL and it's dated 2005!! Maybe there's something I'm missing because believe me, I was in the understanding you and others were until I had talked to the NYSP officer whom is also a 01FFL and then to have that info backed up by an ATF agent based in NY and completely aware of the UNSAFE Act ... something is missing here.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I called the SAFE act hotline, and after explaining for 15 minutes, over and over, what my question was, they thought it would be fine to transfer a C and R gun to an 03 without a BGC. That info however, may or may not be good. The hot line sucks and is ill thought out, just like the whole thing. I'm not sure there is a good clear answer.
 
#34 ·
... and it did!! Congrats!! Oh .... The guy from the pistol permit issuing place never called back BUT the ATF is sending me the provision and a statement in writing that says that if a BGC is done on you for a qualifying gun, there is no need to put it on the books. (you love me and you know it!) :cheers:
 
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