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Stupid question - Optics

6K views 47 replies 11 participants last post by  tommyp 
#1 ·
I want a leupold, want mil dot, don't see the need for an optic > 1k to start out. The 2 or 3 left that they make that i can find are labeled "ar". They're variable power, weather proof, mil dot reticle scopes. Good for a 700? Do they just say "AR" because they're mil dot for some stupid reason?

Was checking out this one on Midway:

Leupold Mark AR Rifle Scope 4-12x 40mm Adjustable Objective Mil-Dot

Also - says "unvavailable, seasonal run". Anyone know if these only come in seasonal batches? I don't' wanna wait a year for optics. Any other suggestions around the same price point?
 
#4 ·
I want a leupold, want mil dot, don't see the need for an optic > 1k to start out. The 2 or 3 left that they make that i can find are labeled "ar". They're variable power, weather proof, mil dot reticle scopes. Good for a 700? Do they just say "AR" because they're mil dot for some stupid reason?

Was checking out this one on Midway:

Leupold Mark AR Rifle Scope 4-12x 40mm Adjustable Objective Mil-Dot

Also - says "unvavailable, seasonal run". Anyone know if these only come in seasonal batches? I don't' wanna wait a year for optics. Any other suggestions around the same price point?
They say AR because they want (marketing) and they are also saying in the 300-400 price range to compete with Nikon, Weaver, vortex, etc...

There are not stupid sincere questions, maybe only stupid answers.
Personally I think that a mildot is nice but w/o a first focal plane you can only range at a determined power or then do a different calculation
according to the magnification. I any case it would not be a bad idea that the adjustment was then in the same UoM.
If you like doing holdover is a different story but then that reticle is not the best for that purpose neither.
Anything can be done the question is, do you want to do more work or less work. Also how well that scope tracks I am not sure.
I don't know this leupolds but I would not be going that route for a rem 700.
It depends also on what you like to do. Purpose is the first point one must take into account.
 
#6 ·
Some like the Nikons have a bullet drop compensator reticle that is calibrated for specific .223 bullet weights, hence the AR designation.
 
#7 ·
I think I just heard there was a sale on these scopes at Dicks,I think a rebate promotion.Me I dont fall for the AR scope thing,just more money IMO.Give me a Leupold VX 2 3x9 for around 300 (of even less with a slick-guns coupon) and im happy.Just cant see putting more than that in a scope,and its worth it all the way without being a cheapy...
 
#8 ·
It's all about marketing.....For the money the Tasco Varmint scopes in the $70-$100 range are a great scope......Will they take the beating of a big bore yes and no.....It all depends on what you want.....

And there is no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer...:)
 
#28 ·
I would not trust anything Tasco with holding zero with anything more than an air-rifle or a .22. When it comes to scopes, you usually pay for what you get with few exceptions. Those companies selling scopes or thousands of dollars are selling for that price because they are thousands of times better than a Tasco. Tascos don't have any great features, the glass quality is anything but quality, and in general they're just cheaply made.
 
#9 · (Edited)
the leupold mark ar,is calibrated to the 556 round on the turrent and on the mildots , they are specifly made for the 556 round . that doesnt mean you cant use them on other rifles , i swap mine out all the time,

that being said , you can eventually send it to leupold's custom shop and have them install 308 calibrated turrents. or order it right from the shop.

in my opinion, you cant go wrong with a leupold, it does what its supposed to do ,and has a lifetime warrenty and high re-sale
value.


3x9 scope is a llittle under powered for long range 308 , its useable of course , but the mark ar also comes in 18x which is a little nicer if your going for 10'' plates at 600 yards .
[i spilled some coffe on the keyboard,no caps:eek:
 
#10 ·
Still trying to learn..sighting seems rather complicated. So what I'm hearing is on the scope i had linked, the adjustment w/the turrets is not the same as the reticle?

I'm open to other suggestions. $500 is roughly my cap, and I see myself adjusting point of aim more than scope adjustment. It just seems simpler. Altho, i'm not opposed to figuring out how to spin the dials. Basically not for hunting, but i'd like the option. Medium to long range paper killing (say 150-400) but would like it to be able to stretch further if possible. I'd rather "buy it right the first time" and have it last - weather proof , shock proof, etc. I honestly have no clue what I need/want - still new to long range shooting. I just know i'd rather not have to do it twice.
 
#11 · (Edited)
The mark ar is calibrated for the 556 round , There are 2 sets of markings the upper set is calibrated 100-700 yards (lol,ok anybody can get lucky)

1= 100 yards 2 =200 3 =300 and so on. No math, no complacated. But not super sniper either. Your mounts are going to make a difference as a well as your ammo. I belive the proper scope height is 1.5 from center of scope to barrel .which is going to be critical in respect to the calibration. if its off so will your shot . you might consistany hit x inches high or low of your bull. if the mount is sleightly off .

leupold makes a onepeice mark ar scope mount which is designed to work in conjuntion with the 556 and the scope. its about 100 bucks but your set. you put cheap rings on and your going to pull your freaking hair out trying to figure why your shots are varied so much. good scope rings are about 70-100 anyways , might as well do it right for a few bucks more.

Remember, the Ar is not a sniper rifle ,nor was it designed to be . dont spend the money to try to make it one. it will never be as good as a good bolt action rifle. A hit on your target is good enough for govermnent work . If ya really want a sniper rifle pick up a 700 Remington in 308 . its cheaper than modding the crap out of your AR snd you might,might get close to a bolt action , but never better.


If you dont plan on dialing in your shots then I wouldnt worry to much about the calibration being 556. like I said before I use it on my 308. and my air rifles:p I shot a lot of cheaper scopes and I never regretted spending the money for the Leupold. it works. and its a lifetime guarrentee.In fact Im putting away money for 18x
 
#14 · (Edited)
The target turrents and reticle were made for the 556. what Im saying is that the marks are already in place for a 556 .

Now you take that scope which was really designed for the 556 and use it on a 308 ,your marks are obviously going to be different thats all. Use it the same way as you an uncalibrated scope. Forget the calibration , it wont apply to the 308 . the scope is still just as accurate ,only You have to figure out your own ""dope"" for the rifle where useing it the 556 its all done for you.

Its the same with any scope that isnt calibrated. you have to figure out your own calabration for the rifle and ammo .

I would not discount the advice from Meketrefe , Im a novice in compareision
 
#13 · (Edited)
If you do not want to spend more than 300 is very hard to get anything that is easily adjustable to either dial in a correction or holdover
where you can reliably produce the needed correction.

These are some of your best bets that can actually both track and hold zero but with some limitations obviously...

SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope

Weaver Tactical Grand Slam Rifle Scope 3-10x 40mm 1/10 Mil Adjustments

Bushnell Elite 3200 Tactical Rifle Scope 10x 40mm 1/10 Mil Adjustments

Definitively more than plenty to shoot well at 400-500 yards. An affordable 3-9 will do just fine too I just do not know of any option that comes
with both reticle and correction in the same Unit of measure for that price point.
Keep in mind the Leupold AR were created in response to the Monarch 223 and 308 BDCs but they are not in the same quality wise
specially the glass. Also keep in mind that any BDC/AR/Bullet drop or however they decide to call it they are reticles that work in
a 2nd focal plane. In short they do not grow or shrink as you zoom in or out therefore a specific load will work in one single magnification
and if you move from there then everything is a guess. Some with a taller turret might be easy to adjust but you have to work a lot harder
at the estimation. I found that the Nikon tracks well but you must be ready with some pretty unusual math to convert hash marks in your
reticle to the actual needed correction. The best thing is to study your scope. The manufactures give you some software to help you but
in my experience is an approximation so you to A) know the actual speed of your load. B) Do the mapping in standard uning like MOA
or Mills C) Convert to your comp reticle. So this requires a lot of verification on the field at various distances.
The issue is not really the drop because the gravity is going to work always the same but the real issue for these are the windy days.
I found that when huntin the nikon I can holdover at the edges of the circles for 10mph full value wind and half that for 5mph but if you
get into 15 or 20mph winds then you need to dial in. Anyway any of those are not the best for really long range but great for
AR at average distances or hunting rifles at the common distances where holdover is easier.

I am not sure what Remington 700 you have but some of the above will let you do the math at 10 power as easily as some of the high value
scopes. Not the same versatility but a pretty standard and easy method. If you want something that will work as you grow into the shooting then save money and look into a scope with a first focal plane or simply use one of the above that you will leave on this rifle when you get the next one or you can use those
for a nice AR that will work just fine.

Of the AR scopes with the compensating reticle do not discard the Burris fulfied E1. In my opinion is better than the leupold and even some of the nikon monarch. Nice glass, and the reticle has a nice and easy holdover marks not just for drop but for windage too with a very clear and fine reticle. Also it is easy to adjust to the specific load if needed nice turren knobs are standard.

Once again most comp reticles unless they are a first focal plane work only at certain magnification levels that must be verified. If you fail to set your magnification accordingly the correction will not work as advertised so what it is sold as easy, it is easy for the folks at the average ranges but then if you go longer then it is actually harder to correct or at least you need to practice more.
 
#15 ·
Thanks Met. As mentioned - i'm willing to go around 500 (not 300$), but if another hundred bucks gets me what makes sense, then so be it.

I think i'm getting more confused because theres' some confusion on what I have, and willing to spend. Just to recap:

I have a rem 700 sps, that will have the **** stock for a while. It's chambered for .308.
I'm willing to spend up to around $500 for the optics, but will spend a bit more if needed to get the right scope the first time.

Please un-confuse me. I know leupold is a reputable mfg, it seems mil-dot is recommended. Past that, i'm lost. I've been doing some reading, but still trying to figure things out.
 
#17 ·
Thanks Met. As mentioned - i'm willing to go around 500 (not 300$), but if another hundred bucks gets me what makes sense, then so be it.

I think i'm getting more confused because theres' some confusion on what I have, and willing to spend. Just to recap:

I have a rem 700 sps, that will have the **** stock for a while. It's chambered for .308.
I'm willing to spend up to around $500 for the optics, but will spend a bit more if needed to get the right scope the first time.

Please un-confuse me. I know leupold is a reputable mfg, it seems mil-dot is recommended. Past that, i'm lost. I've been doing some reading, but still trying to figure things out.
Yes. Leupold is a reputable company that make great product. They also own redfield that make great hunting scopes.
Do you understand the difference between a first focal plane and a second focal plane?

To put it simple the second focal plane (most of the comercial scopes including those BDCS adn Mildots) is not the same at all magnifications.
In other words the reticle stays the same while you zoom in (Target grows) and zoom out (target shrinks).
So if you picup a holdover point, that will change... if you zoom in will go up and if you zoom out it will down.
So understanding at what MOA value the holdover marks are at the different magnification settings is paramaunt.

The first focal plane reticle grows and shirnks wiht the reticle as you zoom in and out. This is normally an option in scopes of $900 and above all
the way to $4000. So regardless of your magnification setting the holdover point is always in the same plane as your target picture that means
it will not shift. So if you are doing holdover to correct for a target at 500 yards it doesn't matter what magnification you are on the point
is the same.

In the second focal plane ones in order to find out how the different marks map to the MOA in inches you do the following. Also you
can do in mills but for simplicity in MOA is better if your turrets have fraction of MOA corrections already.
To do this you can put a 3x2 ft grid "in inches" at 100 yards and start writting down the different values at different magnificaiton settings.
Then you can also adjust the scope and see if the scope is tracking well all around your reticle with a few shots holding your shots
to the same aiming point. The scope should return to the original zero after doing elevation and windage corrections.
Manufacturers do not tell you this because they it is too complex for the average joe and will not sell one of those scopes so
they tell you you just pick up the holdover and shoot. But when you actually start reading the manual and studying the scope,
and most important, practice wiht the scope you will find out what I am telling you above.
Do you follow what I mean?
 
#21 ·
It is like having a ruler with 3/4 of the
lines missing.

lol.
 
#22 · (Edited)
To the OP.
In the price range for an easier holdover Pride Fowler makes a 3-9 scope with a great reticle in the first focal plane.
Pride Fowler Rapid Reticle Rimfire Rifle Scope 3-9x 32mm .22 Long

The have other scopes for 500 and 600 dollars that give 600 and 800 reticles. What pride does is that if you request information they
will send you your ballistics cards for your load at no cost although theare different to figure out.
The one above is one designed for a 22LR but you can use for any caliber given that coversion chart and don't have to worry abot magnification
issues like the others and also includes windage.
This is a scope that can be sucesffully and quickly used to engage targets at 500 and 600 yards if you can do the range finding with
another device. In a range is a no brainer.
Pride Flowler was hired by Zeiss to create their Z600 and Z800 scopes that are all based on the same principals but in the Zeiss only found
in the first focal plane in $3000 hunting scopes.
This 22LR has been used in 308w and 223rem rifles w.o any issues about recoil. I would not think twice about that investment given your
budget.
Here is the 600 yards version but you can make the 22LR work just as well as this one. Again pride will send you the holdover points
for your loads. They are very nice folks.
Pride Fowler Rapid Reticle Rifle Scope 3-9x 32mm First Focal 600 Yard
 
#24 ·
For those holdover lovers...

this is potentially a great value but not sure about this model specfically.
For me is too busy and doesn't have paralax for a 12 magnification not sure but it does offer a nice first focal plane.
Horus Vision

But then for a bit more you have the H70 that is very nice. Too much magnification unless you are shooting PD and chucks at long range but anyway a great value too. Already way over your budget.
Horus Vision

If money was not an issue for the OP the H25 is my favorite one. Very fast to do both ranging and correction.
Horus Vision

But again that Pride scope is an amazing value. more than many scopes in the $1K range.
I think Pride they are made here or assembled here or something. Very nice scopes in deed.
 
#26 ·
They do. Actually in high end scopes you will find some of the horus reticles available. Or other desgins with subpartitions in the stadia to aid with raging. The issue is that it is not so popular in the mainstream markets because it is not necessary for most people for hunting, hd and average purpose.
Only now thanks to the Obama administration people are more interested in firearms in general more than ever before no matter what type, caliber or
discipline.

If it goes bang..., we want it! lol.
 
G
#30 ·
TASCO is and has always been a "Brand". They are not a manufacturer. Their products are manufactured for them by contractors, mostly in the Far East. 30-years ago those contractors were Japanese and TASCO products were fair to good. Then in an effort to reduce cost and increase profits TASCO moved to the mainland and the rest is history.

Once more.......you get what you pay for.
 
#35 ·
Those are all made by the same chinese OEM manufacturers you can find them rebranded under
Barska, BSA, Falcon, Primary arms, etc...

Falcon Menace 4-14x44 Tactical 30mm Riflescope

BSA Tactical Mil-Mil Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 4-14x 44mm Side Focus 1/10

Counter Sniper Crusader Rifle Scope 30mm Tube 4-16x 42mm Side Focus

Barska Tactical Rifle Scope 6-20x 50mm Side Focus First Focal

In the past I bought a couple of cheap scopes for 22LR and "go beat the bushes AR uppers" and now they are in a box somewhere in the basement because they do not track or something else. So my advice is to save your money until you can buy a decent one no matter what the countless sniper forums say online.
 
#39 · (Edited)
This is a good thread....enjoyed the responces here.


I'll throw another way to go...... there is long range for average hunters/shooters and long range precision.


Occasionaly hitting a 12" square steel when it strikes your fancy, and getting some decent groups at 300 yds and under?


Doug at Cameraland......site vendor sponsor here and many other forums.......just listed a pile of Zeiss Conquests NIB for right at the price point the OP needs........get the rapid Z 600 retical (not too busy) ; leave it set high when you want to play long, learn the hold for the ammo your gun shoots best.....go kill stuff, paper, steel, deer.

Good glass, great service.

Are you going to be able to play sniper dude? Probably not. Do you need or want to? Not sure by the original post.
 
#42 ·
Jester,
Those are great ones for closer ranges. The reticle works as advertised at full magnification. and even within the 300 yards is easy
to estimate. I use the little Burris timberlines in two of my piston ARs and can shoot at x2 both eyes open, fast aquisition but this is not
the objective here. I would say the burris Fulfield E1 is a step forward with the windage holdover corrections and super clear like
all these burris. But I am proposing something a tad easier fo the OP.
Burrris no doubt good scope with lifetime waranty for that kind of money but read the thread if you didn't.
Cheers.
 
#41 ·
If you do not want to invest so much stay in the 3-9 department and you will get more value for the money.
The 3-9 maganification is very popular therefore with lots of competition so you can find better deals on anything you need.
That is why I suggested the Pride scope for 22LR and first focal plane. It has been proven to be effective not only with the 22LR
but with other cartriges. Not standard Units but when the subtensios are known it is easy and reliable in the end nevertheless,
specially for that price range and w/o the added complications of the 2nd focal plane.
Keep in mind that the reticle that they give you at 200yards for a 22LR can be used equaly for a 308w at 700-800 yards or a 223
at 600-700 yards or so depending on bullets, speeds and atmospherics of course.

My savage Mark IV (Dicks deal) in 22LR std velocity load will produce 6.7mils (23MOA+) that is the same drop one my
rem 700 in 308w will produce at 850 yards with a 178gr superformance hornady load so the pride will serve both.
Drop is suficient and magnification is more than plenty for your 600 yards goal and even beyond unless you are shooting
smaller targets or varmints.

I do long range hunting a couple of times / year and follow the long range hunting forum and hunting trip deals.
Here in this forum one of our buddies Steve (SSCoyote) wrote a nice paper on the Pride 22LR scope.

Long Range Coyotes: A Custom AR-15 And The Little Scope That Could

He pops coyotes left and right wiht that scope all the way to 500 - 600 yards. Coyotes are sneaky creatures and small
and they move fast so you should have no problems hitting paper or steel targets with it.
Then when the time comes to do closer ranges you will enjoy the nice FOV of a 3x9 scope, also if one day you want
to hunt with it in the tipical northern woods where FOV is very important.

If you do not like the pride then look into the Vortex or the Weaver tactical with FFP. they are also proven to be efficient
but based on your budget I thought the pride would be a great value.
This not to win any world record matches but you do not have to worry about that and simply enjoy some solid hits with
any of them.

Do not buy any of those OEM chinese ones though. Those are crrap. I listened once to on of those "sniper x" forums on a
great review on one amazing deal on a wotac scope and the scope is ok and holding up but the company went belly up in
a few months. Then they pulled the review out of their website and Midway, SWFA and others pulled everything out
aobut them. Nothing that I would use on a remington 700 anyway in the first place but I am just saying.

Cheers.
 
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