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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I want a leupold, want mil dot, don't see the need for an optic > 1k to start out. The 2 or 3 left that they make that i can find are labeled "ar". They're variable power, weather proof, mil dot reticle scopes. Good for a 700? Do they just say "AR" because they're mil dot for some stupid reason?

Was checking out this one on Midway:

Leupold Mark AR Rifle Scope 4-12x 40mm Adjustable Objective Mil-Dot

Also - says "unvavailable, seasonal run". Anyone know if these only come in seasonal batches? I don't' wanna wait a year for optics. Any other suggestions around the same price point?
 

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I want a leupold, want mil dot, don't see the need for an optic > 1k to start out. The 2 or 3 left that they make that i can find are labeled "ar". They're variable power, weather proof, mil dot reticle scopes. Good for a 700? Do they just say "AR" because they're mil dot for some stupid reason?

Was checking out this one on Midway:

Leupold Mark AR Rifle Scope 4-12x 40mm Adjustable Objective Mil-Dot

Also - says "unvavailable, seasonal run". Anyone know if these only come in seasonal batches? I don't' wanna wait a year for optics. Any other suggestions around the same price point?
They say AR because they want (marketing) and they are also saying in the 300-400 price range to compete with Nikon, Weaver, vortex, etc...

There are not stupid sincere questions, maybe only stupid answers.
Personally I think that a mildot is nice but w/o a first focal plane you can only range at a determined power or then do a different calculation
according to the magnification. I any case it would not be a bad idea that the adjustment was then in the same UoM.
If you like doing holdover is a different story but then that reticle is not the best for that purpose neither.
Anything can be done the question is, do you want to do more work or less work. Also how well that scope tracks I am not sure.
I don't know this leupolds but I would not be going that route for a rem 700.
It depends also on what you like to do. Purpose is the first point one must take into account.
 

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Some like the Nikons have a bullet drop compensator reticle that is calibrated for specific .223 bullet weights, hence the AR designation.
 

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I think I just heard there was a sale on these scopes at Dicks,I think a rebate promotion.Me I dont fall for the AR scope thing,just more money IMO.Give me a Leupold VX 2 3x9 for around 300 (of even less with a slick-guns coupon) and im happy.Just cant see putting more than that in a scope,and its worth it all the way without being a cheapy...
 

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It's all about marketing.....For the money the Tasco Varmint scopes in the $70-$100 range are a great scope......Will they take the beating of a big bore yes and no.....It all depends on what you want.....

And there is no such thing as a stupid question if you don't know the answer...:)
 

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the leupold mark ar,is calibrated to the 556 round on the turrent and on the mildots , they are specifly made for the 556 round . that doesnt mean you cant use them on other rifles , i swap mine out all the time,

that being said , you can eventually send it to leupold's custom shop and have them install 308 calibrated turrents. or order it right from the shop.

in my opinion, you cant go wrong with a leupold, it does what its supposed to do ,and has a lifetime warrenty and high re-sale
value.


3x9 scope is a llittle under powered for long range 308 , its useable of course , but the mark ar also comes in 18x which is a little nicer if your going for 10'' plates at 600 yards .
[i spilled some coffe on the keyboard,no caps:eek:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Still trying to learn..sighting seems rather complicated. So what I'm hearing is on the scope i had linked, the adjustment w/the turrets is not the same as the reticle?

I'm open to other suggestions. $500 is roughly my cap, and I see myself adjusting point of aim more than scope adjustment. It just seems simpler. Altho, i'm not opposed to figuring out how to spin the dials. Basically not for hunting, but i'd like the option. Medium to long range paper killing (say 150-400) but would like it to be able to stretch further if possible. I'd rather "buy it right the first time" and have it last - weather proof , shock proof, etc. I honestly have no clue what I need/want - still new to long range shooting. I just know i'd rather not have to do it twice.
 

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The mark ar is calibrated for the 556 round , There are 2 sets of markings the upper set is calibrated 100-700 yards (lol,ok anybody can get lucky)

1= 100 yards 2 =200 3 =300 and so on. No math, no complacated. But not super sniper either. Your mounts are going to make a difference as a well as your ammo. I belive the proper scope height is 1.5 from center of scope to barrel .which is going to be critical in respect to the calibration. if its off so will your shot . you might consistany hit x inches high or low of your bull. if the mount is sleightly off .

leupold makes a onepeice mark ar scope mount which is designed to work in conjuntion with the 556 and the scope. its about 100 bucks but your set. you put cheap rings on and your going to pull your freaking hair out trying to figure why your shots are varied so much. good scope rings are about 70-100 anyways , might as well do it right for a few bucks more.

Remember, the Ar is not a sniper rifle ,nor was it designed to be . dont spend the money to try to make it one. it will never be as good as a good bolt action rifle. A hit on your target is good enough for govermnent work . If ya really want a sniper rifle pick up a 700 Remington in 308 . its cheaper than modding the crap out of your AR snd you might,might get close to a bolt action , but never better.


If you dont plan on dialing in your shots then I wouldnt worry to much about the calibration being 556. like I said before I use it on my 308. and my air rifles:p I shot a lot of cheaper scopes and I never regretted spending the money for the Leupold. it works. and its a lifetime guarrentee.In fact Im putting away money for 18x
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks holdover - you may have missed i did buy a 308. Just have no clue what glass to get. Saw the AR branded Leupold had mil..but from what i read the adjustments aren't accurate for the reticle? Still kinda confused...
 

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If you do not want to spend more than 300 is very hard to get anything that is easily adjustable to either dial in a correction or holdover
where you can reliably produce the needed correction.

These are some of your best bets that can actually both track and hold zero but with some limitations obviously...

SWFA SS 10x42 Tactical Riflescope

Weaver Tactical Grand Slam Rifle Scope 3-10x 40mm 1/10 Mil Adjustments

Bushnell Elite 3200 Tactical Rifle Scope 10x 40mm 1/10 Mil Adjustments

Definitively more than plenty to shoot well at 400-500 yards. An affordable 3-9 will do just fine too I just do not know of any option that comes
with both reticle and correction in the same Unit of measure for that price point.
Keep in mind the Leupold AR were created in response to the Monarch 223 and 308 BDCs but they are not in the same quality wise
specially the glass. Also keep in mind that any BDC/AR/Bullet drop or however they decide to call it they are reticles that work in
a 2nd focal plane. In short they do not grow or shrink as you zoom in or out therefore a specific load will work in one single magnification
and if you move from there then everything is a guess. Some with a taller turret might be easy to adjust but you have to work a lot harder
at the estimation. I found that the Nikon tracks well but you must be ready with some pretty unusual math to convert hash marks in your
reticle to the actual needed correction. The best thing is to study your scope. The manufactures give you some software to help you but
in my experience is an approximation so you to A) know the actual speed of your load. B) Do the mapping in standard uning like MOA
or Mills C) Convert to your comp reticle. So this requires a lot of verification on the field at various distances.
The issue is not really the drop because the gravity is going to work always the same but the real issue for these are the windy days.
I found that when huntin the nikon I can holdover at the edges of the circles for 10mph full value wind and half that for 5mph but if you
get into 15 or 20mph winds then you need to dial in. Anyway any of those are not the best for really long range but great for
AR at average distances or hunting rifles at the common distances where holdover is easier.

I am not sure what Remington 700 you have but some of the above will let you do the math at 10 power as easily as some of the high value
scopes. Not the same versatility but a pretty standard and easy method. If you want something that will work as you grow into the shooting then save money and look into a scope with a first focal plane or simply use one of the above that you will leave on this rifle when you get the next one or you can use those
for a nice AR that will work just fine.

Of the AR scopes with the compensating reticle do not discard the Burris fulfied E1. In my opinion is better than the leupold and even some of the nikon monarch. Nice glass, and the reticle has a nice and easy holdover marks not just for drop but for windage too with a very clear and fine reticle. Also it is easy to adjust to the specific load if needed nice turren knobs are standard.

Once again most comp reticles unless they are a first focal plane work only at certain magnification levels that must be verified. If you fail to set your magnification accordingly the correction will not work as advertised so what it is sold as easy, it is easy for the folks at the average ranges but then if you go longer then it is actually harder to correct or at least you need to practice more.
 

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Thanks holdover - you may have missed i did buy a 308. Just have no clue what glass to get. Saw the AR branded Leupold had mil..but from what i read the adjustments aren't accurate for the reticle? Still kinda confused...
The target turrents and reticle were made for the 556. what Im saying is that the marks are already in place for a 556 .

Now you take that scope which was really designed for the 556 and use it on a 308 ,your marks are obviously going to be different thats all. Use it the same way as you an uncalibrated scope. Forget the calibration , it wont apply to the 308 . the scope is still just as accurate ,only You have to figure out your own ""dope"" for the rifle where useing it the 556 its all done for you.

Its the same with any scope that isnt calibrated. you have to figure out your own calabration for the rifle and ammo .

I would not discount the advice from Meketrefe , Im a novice in compareision
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Met. As mentioned - i'm willing to go around 500 (not 300$), but if another hundred bucks gets me what makes sense, then so be it.

I think i'm getting more confused because theres' some confusion on what I have, and willing to spend. Just to recap:

I have a rem 700 sps, that will have the **** stock for a while. It's chambered for .308.
I'm willing to spend up to around $500 for the optics, but will spend a bit more if needed to get the right scope the first time.

Please un-confuse me. I know leupold is a reputable mfg, it seems mil-dot is recommended. Past that, i'm lost. I've been doing some reading, but still trying to figure things out.
 

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The target turrents and reticle were made for the 556. what Im saying is that the marks are already in place for a 556 .

Now you take that scope which was really designed for the 556 and use it on a 308 ,your marks are obviously going to be different thats all. Use it the same way as you an uncalibrated scope. Forget the calibration , it wont apply to the 308 . the scope is still just as accurate ,only You have to figure out your own ""dope"" for the rifle where useing it the 556 its all done for you.

Its the same with any scope that isnt calibrated. you have to figure out your own calabration for the rifle and ammo .

I would not discount the advice from Meketrefe , Im a novice in compareision
Do you know what 5.56 load... M193, M855, M855A1, MK262?
And in what magnification of the scope? I am asking because the reticle is not going to work for the same load at sea level vs 10,000ft anyway
so there is no way they can make that magically adjust to altitude w/o some manual correction. Zeiss for example lets you calculate the optimal magnificaiton setting for your loads and then pickup your holdover points. If one doesn't understand this simple concept and trade offs then
they do not know how these scopes work. They are simple to a point then they are not so simple anymore. Specially becase if you go on a defensive AR or a hunting it is not going to matter if you hit the deer 1 inch above or below as soon you hit the vitals.
Also some 5.56 military loads are very simliar to th 308w See below.

  • M118 = M118 Special Ball - 173gr FMJ-BT (2550fps)
  • M118LR = M118LR Special Ball - 175gr HPBT (2580fps)
  • HSM 155gr = HSM 308-37 .308 Win 155gr HPBT (2860fps)
Bullet Drop (Inches)
100y 91m200y 183m300y 275m400y 366m500y 458m600y 549m700y 641m800y 732m900y 824m1000y 915m
M118+16.5+30.0+36.0+34.0+22.5Zero-35.0-80.0-144.0-230.0
M118LR+17.4+30.4+36.3+34.2+22.6Zero-35.7-86.8-156.1-246.7
HSM 155gr+13.8+24.3+29.2+27.5+18.2Zero-28.8-70.3-127.2-202.9


Federal Gold Medal match - 5.56x45mm NATO (.223) 77gr 2750fps
Bullet Drop (Inches)
100y
91m
200y
183m
300y
275m
400y
366m
500y
458m
600y
549m
700y
641m
800y
732m
900y
824m
1000y
915m
+17.7
+31.3
+38.1
+36.6
+24.7
Zero
-40.9
-101.9
-187.4
-302.1


 

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Thanks Met. As mentioned - i'm willing to go around 500 (not 300$), but if another hundred bucks gets me what makes sense, then so be it.

I think i'm getting more confused because theres' some confusion on what I have, and willing to spend. Just to recap:

I have a rem 700 sps, that will have the **** stock for a while. It's chambered for .308.
I'm willing to spend up to around $500 for the optics, but will spend a bit more if needed to get the right scope the first time.

Please un-confuse me. I know leupold is a reputable mfg, it seems mil-dot is recommended. Past that, i'm lost. I've been doing some reading, but still trying to figure things out.
Yes. Leupold is a reputable company that make great product. They also own redfield that make great hunting scopes.
Do you understand the difference between a first focal plane and a second focal plane?

To put it simple the second focal plane (most of the comercial scopes including those BDCS adn Mildots) is not the same at all magnifications.
In other words the reticle stays the same while you zoom in (Target grows) and zoom out (target shrinks).
So if you picup a holdover point, that will change... if you zoom in will go up and if you zoom out it will down.
So understanding at what MOA value the holdover marks are at the different magnification settings is paramaunt.

The first focal plane reticle grows and shirnks wiht the reticle as you zoom in and out. This is normally an option in scopes of $900 and above all
the way to $4000. So regardless of your magnification setting the holdover point is always in the same plane as your target picture that means
it will not shift. So if you are doing holdover to correct for a target at 500 yards it doesn't matter what magnification you are on the point
is the same.

In the second focal plane ones in order to find out how the different marks map to the MOA in inches you do the following. Also you
can do in mills but for simplicity in MOA is better if your turrets have fraction of MOA corrections already.
To do this you can put a 3x2 ft grid "in inches" at 100 yards and start writting down the different values at different magnificaiton settings.
Then you can also adjust the scope and see if the scope is tracking well all around your reticle with a few shots holding your shots
to the same aiming point. The scope should return to the original zero after doing elevation and windage corrections.
Manufacturers do not tell you this because they it is too complex for the average joe and will not sell one of those scopes so
they tell you you just pick up the holdover and shoot. But when you actually start reading the manual and studying the scope,
and most important, practice wiht the scope you will find out what I am telling you above.
Do you follow what I mean?
 

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Do you know what 5.56 load... M193, M855, M855A1, MK262?
And in what magnification of the scope? I am asking because the reticle is not going to work for the same load at sea level vs 10,000ft anyway
so there is no way they can make that magically adjust to altitude w/o some manual correction.

I agree,

Zeiss for example lets you calculate the optimal magnificaiton setting for your loads and then pickup your holdover points. If one doesn't understand this simple concept and trade offs then
they do not know how these scopes work. They are simple to a point then they are not so simple anymore. Specially becase if you go on a defensive AR or a hunting it is not going to matter if you hit the deer 1 inch above or below as soon you hit the vitals.

I agree

I was just trying to help the guy out explain and what the Mark Ar is designed for. I was'nt trying to give him a lesson in ballistics. Ill leave that part to you. I know he was asking if the mark ar is serviceable on a 308 . I use it on mine and think its a nice scope,(for the money)Maybe not the preferred scope of course , but budgets are tight .
 

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Do you know what 5.56 load... M193, M855, M855A1, MK262?
And in what magnification of the scope? I am asking because the reticle is not going to work for the same load at sea level vs 10,000ft anyway
so there is no way they can make that magically adjust to altitude w/o some manual correction.

I agree,

Zeiss for example lets you calculate the optimal magnificaiton setting for your loads and then pickup your holdover points. If one doesn't understand this simple concept and trade offs then
they do not know how these scopes work. They are simple to a point then they are not so simple anymore. Specially becase if you go on a defensive AR or a hunting it is not going to matter if you hit the deer 1 inch above or below as soon you hit the vitals.

I agree

I was just trying to help the guy out explain and what the Mark Ar is designed for. I was'nt trying to give him a lesson in ballistics. Ill leave that part to you. I know he was asking if the mark ar is serviceable on a 308 . I use it on mine and think its a nice scope,(for the money)Maybe not the preferred scope of course , but budgets are tight .
No question a leupold is a leupold but I just want to make sure he understands there is no "magic" adjustment for holdover for any given load. The way they explain how it works is not 100% accurate and it is more like a marketing stunt to convince people that in any case they are never going to shoot at 500 yards or on a windy day. Or just keep burning ammo until you pickup the targer! lol.

I am sure the holdover at the precalculated setting will do just fine/close enough in the rochester area at 500ft over sea level in normal conditions with a M193 type load at the typcial range in most areaas around here.
Actually in the case of the 2nd focal plane the magnification adjustment might work on your behalf with paitience, slower correction but you never know until you try and make it work for you.
I can do ranging on the BDC scope too but it is very hard to do any fine tuning, should this ever be needed. It is like having a ruler with 3/4 of the lines missing. Defenetly not for everyone I can assure you that.
So for the AR up to 300 yards or so is ok to get your holdovers but beyond that I think the shooter is going to be investing some significant time to make it work.

So, again, they are simple to a point but then they are very complex to understand and what is in the instructions doesn't apply to the field so you must do a lot of work to figure it out.
 
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