[MSparhawk]

Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum -

My wife and I applied for pistol permits in January for the purpose of starting a hobby in target shooting. We did our research on pistol licenses in NYS and westchester, and determined that there was really only one license that would allow for target shooting, which would be under "Carry Concealed" as one of the check boxes for license type was listed on the Westchester application.

At the interview we met with a very pleasant detective who talked us through the process, and confirmed that it was indeed an application for a "Carry Concealed" permit, but that with the submission of the target shooting addendum letter it will almost definitely be granted with the restriction for target shooting only. He also noted that it was extremely hard to get an unrestricted license in Westchester and that going for this restricted carry concealed license was the way to get things done. This seemed very straightforward and we completed the application as such.

Today I received a denial letter for both me and my wife, and the letter was quite strange. It was a decision by the county court to deny the permit because the application contained a "significant irregularity". Specifically, it stated that this was an application for a carry concealed permit with the restriction to target shooting, but that the dept of public safety did not treat this application as an application for a full carry permit but instead treated it as a permit for the purpose of target shooting and was therefore denied.

I find this very frustrating because I thought I was quite sure on the NYS laws that there was no such thing as a "target shooting license" and in fact the detective did confirm that at the interview, and of course we all know there is no check box for a target shooting license on the application form - --- just a full carry and the option to submit an addendum for target shooting restriction to be placed on it - which is exactly what we did.

They also stated that we failed to provide proper cause for a carry concealed permit including a special need for self-protection distinguishable from the general community. But this is ridiculous because our intention was to only carry concealed to and from the shooting range and we indicated that on the target shooting addendum attachment to the application!!

Before I call the permit office, which will now be on Monday given the weekend is here, I was wondering if anyone can make sense of this or has experienced something similar! I still fail to see how this makes sense seeing that there is only a carry concealed and a home/premises license available for application in NYS and that in order to take the gun outside of the house for any reason including target shooting, a carry concealed permit must be applied for and then the Judge was to restrict the license for carry only in transit to/from and at the shooting range!

Thanks in advance for any advice!

Sincerely,
Pete Zambito

 

[sr20sean]

File an appeal.

 

[fastk9dad]

That's a very bizarre denial.

I'd have to see the new application forms because I know they changed things but when I did mine years ago on the background worksheet there was a bunch of checkboxes for what you were going for: Full Carry, Ret. Police, Target, Employment, Premise, etc...

Then on the actual application that you fill out in triplicate you check off the "carry concealed" box and then under reason you put target shooting, camping, hiking, etc...

That sounds like what you did along with filling out the target rider, so I'm not sure what the issue is. A call is def in order.

It sounds like they treated it as a full carry and not a target permit, but got their signals crossed when writing the letter.

 

[BryanMandP]

im doing it in rockland right now and when i spoke to the detective he told me that i was applying for an possess on premises and that covered shootoing range camping etc he said that concealed is for police only that may be why

 

[MSparhawk]

Thanks for the replies so far guys!

 

[MSparhawk]

Yeah fastk9dad it does sound like they wrote a reply to the wrong kind of concealed license. You are correct the application form is still the same- the main app only has premises, work, and carry concealed - and then you do a rider for what you want, such as fully carry, target, hunting...

 

[Vincine]

I suspect they did not want to provide you with a concealed carry permit. This includes any reason. When I lived in NYC, a Target Permit required you to carry the pistol to and from the range in a locked box, and not on your person. There was one guy that got a concealed carry permit because he carried a several pistols in boxes to & from the target range to shoot. They wanted to make sure he wasn't robbed of his guns. But this was a long time ago & in NYC.

 

[MSparhawk]

*sigh* cant say I'm surprised from other's experiences. At least it only took 4 months from interview to decision. One can only hope that the appeals process is slightly shorter

 

[usmcveteran]

I would suggest to get a lawyer for your appeal. It seems like you are not dealing with the brightest of people or they are pushing some kind of agenda based on the info provided. I can only imagine how frustrating it will be to fight this on your own thats why I think you should get a lawyer in this case to deal with it for you. Either way if that was the reason for the denial you should have no issue getting it on appeal.

 

[MSparhawk]

Thanks usmcveteran for the words of encouragement! Appeal looks like the way to go!

 

[fastk9dad]

I suspect they did not want to provide you with a concealed carry permit. This includes any reason. When I lived in NYC, a Target Permit required you to carry the pistol to and from the range in a locked box, and not on your person. There was one guy that got a concealed carry permit because he carried a several pistols in boxes to & from the target range to shoot. They wanted to make sure he wasn't robbed of his guns. But this was a long time ago & in NYC.

Generally not the case up here. They'd prefer you not leave your guns in your car if you stop at the bank, ATM, etc... on the way to the range.

I've actually not heard of someone with a clean record getting denied for a "target permit" and it's worded so backwards, You applied for X, we aren't treating it as Y, but are still denying you for X. That doesn't even make sense.

Does the DT still go over all the paper work before you hand it in. If there was anything wrong he should of spotted it and made you correct it there.

 

[fastk9dad]

BTW, what judge denied it? PM me if you don't want to state publicly.

 

[MSparhawk]

No that's ok fastk9dad - it was Judge James Hubert. And yes we met a very nice detective who went over the whole thing with us and explained that in NYS there were only two types of permits - a premises permit and a carry permit, and that all carrys are full carry permits unless restrictions are placed on it by the judge - and those restrictions depend on what addendums we submit - such as that we intend to use for target shooting...

 

[Darthgamer138]

What the fork? There is no such thing as a "Target Shooting" permit in NYS. There are 3 big types, the ones listed on the permit application provided by NYS. This one: http://troopers.ny.gov/firearms/PPB-3.pdf

They are Premises (just your house), Carry for work (Just for work) and carry concealed. That's it. A judge may put ADMINISTRATIVE RESTRICTIONS on a license, but it is still a Concealed Carry License.

 

[MSparhawk]

Yup darthgamer138. My research into the law revealed the exact same thing before I applied - only 3 types which u listed. Very strange...

 

[jts628]

Sounds like you had the extreme misfortune to have some real brain surgeons process your application. Sounds like you did everything right. Perhaps a visit to the clerk would get this straightened out without the need to file a formal appeal given that there seems to be an obvious disconnect between your application and the denial letter.

 

[MSparhawk]

hopefully jts628 - thanks for the encouraging words

 

[fastk9dad]

I agree, if you can on Monday show up at the clerks office in person with letter in hand and see if they can explain what it means.

 

[usmcveteran]

After rereading your denial it looks like what they are saying is this. You applied for a concealed carry permit for target shooting. Since it was treated as a permit for target shooting it was denied (assumption on my part here) because no such permit exists for target shooting. Since you failed to show cause above that of the general population for self defense your concealed carry permit was denied because you did not meet the requirements for said permit.

I think that is a bunch of BS personally. here are some points that come to mind to argue lol but again I would just let a lawyer handle it. First off there is plenty of precedent for people in your county getting permits restricted to target shooting. The reason they dont have full carry is because they did not meet the burden of "need" to defend themself more then the general population. Since they were still approved for a restricted license and absent of any other reason for denial then it would appear as though they have other motives to deny for whatever reason.

Also here are a couple other laws that could be used, granted some apply more then others lol.

FBI - Federal Statutes[HR][/HR]

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 241
Conspiracy Against Rights

This statute makes it unlawful for two or more persons to conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person of any state, territory or district in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him/her by the Constitution or the laws of the United States, (or because of his/her having exercised the same).It further makes it unlawful for two or more persons to go in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another with the intent to prevent or hinder his/her free exercise or enjoyment of any rights so secured.Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to ten years, or both; and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years, or for life, or may be sentenced to death.​

Title 18, U.S.C., Section 242
Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law
This statute makes it a crime for any person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation, or custom to willfully deprive or cause to be deprived from any person those rights, privileges, or immunities secured or protected by the Constitution and laws of the U.S.
This law further prohibits a person acting under color of law, statute, ordinance, regulation or custom to willfully subject or cause to be subjected any person to different punishments, pains, or penalties, than those prescribed for punishment of citizens on account of such person being an alien or by reason of his/her color or race.
Acts under "color of any law" include acts not only done by federal, state, or local officials within the bounds or limits of their lawful authority, but also acts done without and beyond the bounds of their lawful authority; provided that, in order for unlawful acts of any official to be done under "color of any law," the unlawful acts must be done while such official is purporting or pretending to act in the performance of his/her official duties. This definition includes, in addition to law enforcement officials, individuals such as Mayors, Council persons, Judges, Nursing Home Proprietors, Security Guards, etc., persons who are bound by laws, statutes ordinances, or customs.
Punishment varies from a fine or imprisonment of up to one year, or both, and if bodily injury results or if such acts include the use, attempted use, or threatened use of a dangerous weapon, explosives, or fire shall be fined or imprisoned up to ten years or both, and if death results, or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.

They may argue that D.C. V heller only says you have the right to a firearm in your home and not in public hence you can be denied but I disagree because SCOTUS did not say that at all. They only ruled on the home since that was what the specific case was about.

Either way a lawyer will get you your permit. Also when you go down there asking the right questions can help a lot in getting them to realize their errors.

 

[Capt4975]

I too received that same letter and denial Friday. Same judge also. I too will be calling county clerk on Monday. I spoke to a detective on Friday and he told me "that's what they do". So I have to appeal the decision.