New York Firearms Forum banner
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,099 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,414 Posts
Sounds like he acted properly to me, the guy threatened someone already once with a knife, then came back again with something in a black bag, could have been anything, could have been a firearm of his own, I say too bad he didn't kill the guy, I hope all charges are dropped.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,553 Posts
There has to be more to the story than what's in the news. I always read about things like this and it normally takes the DA a little bit of time to decide whether or not to press charges on the person but he was arrested on the spot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,414 Posts
There has to be more to the story than what's in the news. I always read about things like this and it normally takes the DA a little bit of time to decide whether or not to press charges on the person but he was arrested on the spot.
There probably is, there's always more to it that you only know about when you are there. This is NY I'm sure that any firearm related incident involving one person getting shot involves an arrest on the spot until they clear everything up, very rarely even in a self defense situation will you shoot someone and not at least be held overnight I would think, in NYS anyway. Hopefully it was justified and that man keeps his job and his firearms, oh and permit too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,857 Posts
If there isn't a LOT more to it, then those charges are BS. On the face of it, it sounds like another DA wanting us to be cooperating victims of thugs.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
To be fair I think the guy should be arrested and charged. A guy made a threat and reached into a bag. The security officer didn't even identify a clear and present danger before fireing at the person.

BUT I think the guy shouldn't be charged only because most likely a LEO wouldnt in this situation. My example would be the shooting in ontario(is that the right place?) where police were called about a disturbance (I think it had something to do with someones kid not being invited to birthday party). Police show up, people in house turn off lights and pretend not to be home. Women runs toward door or walked to door (depending on the article you read) holding a cell phone and was shot. She survived and officer was not charged.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,414 Posts
To be fair I think the guy should be arrested and charged. A guy made a threat and reached into a bag. The security officer didn't even identify a clear and present danger before fireing at the person.

BUT I think the guy shouldn't be charged only because most likely a LEO wouldnt in this situation. My example would be the shooting in ontario(is that the right place?) where police were called about a disturbance (I think it had something to do with someones kid not being invited to birthday party). Police show up, people in house turn off lights and pretend not to be home. Women runs toward door or walked to door (depending on the article you read) holding a cell phone and was shot. She survived and officer was not charged.
He had threatened a man with a knife earlier, and promised to return, when he did he was holding a black plastic bag and reached into it when the security guard approached him again, anyone in their right mind in this situation would assume that man was about to present a weapon or perhaps even shoot through the bag if there was a pistol in there, he had more then enough to believe his life was in danger in my opinion. It shouldn't be about LEO or not the guy was obviously dangerous and threatening, and his job is to protect the people that live there as a guard, I feel he was well within his rights.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
Not sure if this was the intention of the OP but this is what I find interesting. If the security guard were a LEO on duty I am sure there would be a lot of people here saying it was wrong. But because it wasn't people are sticking up for him. I am not saying that is what is happening here but I am saying it could be a subconcious contributing factor.

I guess I am making multiple points. While I think what the security officer did was not in line with the law I also dont feel he should be charged. The example I gave earlier about the woman getting shot is another reason why I think the guard should not be charged because it wouldnt be fair.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,414 Posts
Not sure if this was the intention of the OP but this is what I find interesting. If the security guard were a LEO on duty I am sure there would be a lot of people here saying it was wrong. But because it wasn't people are sticking up for him. I am not saying that is what is happening here but I am saying it could be a subconcious contributing factor.

I guess I am making multiple points. While I think what the security officer did was not in line with the law I also dont feel he should be charged. The example I gave earlier about the woman getting shot is another reason why I think the guard should not be charged because it wouldnt be fair.
Well my opinion personally is that if the guard was a LEO and had shot him I would still feel the same way, it was within the law, although if the guard was a LEO this guy woulda been taken down and arrested for the first incident with the knife too.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
That is good.

I still think it was only a verbal threat and without any immediate physical threat he acted in the wrong.
If I said I was going to kill you can you shoot me?
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket can you shoot me?
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket and pull out a cell phone can you shoot me?
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket and pull out a pocket knife and just stand there can you shoot me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,414 Posts
That is good.

I still think it was only a verbal threat and without any immediate physical threat he acted in the wrong.
If I said I was going to kill you can you shoot me?
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket can you shoot me?
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket and pull out a cell phone can you shoot me?
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket and pull out a pocket knife and just stand there can you shoot me?
If you threaten a man with a knife, and I am a security guard who sees it and reports it to the police, you are removed from the vicinity with the promise of coming back and what amounts basically to threatening to do people harm, and then you DO come back, 20 mins later, with something hidden in a plastic bag and upon being confronted you reach into the bag, I do believe a person would have reason to fear for their life and defend themselves.

Also we are just reading this, in the heat of the moment the man may have been agitated, he may have been yelling at them, he may have acted totally insane and then returned and presented himself as if he was in fact armed (even if he wasn't)

I see your point however at the same time being there and having this guy in front of you is probably a bit more intense then just reading about a jerk with a pocket knife, plus we can't forget then even if he wasn't a LEO, he was in charge of protecting those people, it was his job to do so, and he was allowed to carry while on duty, this tells me he wasn't just some mall cop who took it upon himself to carry a firearm, this was a serious job and there was a reason these guards were armed. If the situation wasn't leaning toward the dangerous side, I think he would have just called the police again like he did the first time, something must have happened that was perceived as an immediate threat.

The situation could go either way, both of our views can be agreed upon depending on how the actual situation played out for the people directly involved.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
I agree we dont know enough to say one way or the other. Without assuming anything and only going off the details in the article I think he reacted to soon, but like you said its my opinion and since I wasn't there I dont know exactly what was happening. I just think though in general if someone threatens you and puts there hand in a bag you cant just shoot them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,445 Posts
That the guard is a former cop - lends me to believe that he would know what he's doing and not some gung-ho wannabe. However, Article 35 (specifically 35.15) justification *may* apply here so long as the guard's reasonable belief was he was about to be met with deadly physical force, and he was unable to retreat. In any event - it'll go to a grand jury and hopefully they'll no-bill the charges and he'll walk.

Cadillac Hotel where this happened isn't known for being the safest place to be - and if they're hiring armed security there, that explains a lot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,700 Posts
That is good.

I still think it was only a verbal threat and without any immediate physical threat he acted in the wrong.
If I said I was going to kill you can you shoot me? Yes
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket can you shoot me? Yes
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket and pull out a cell phone can you shoot me? Yes
If I said I was going to kill you and I put my hand in my pocket and pull out a pocket knife and just stand there can you shoot me? Yes
All one has to do is reasonably believe.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
10,553 Posts
I dont get this. News says the guy pulled a hammer out of his bag before being shot.
 

·
The artist formerly known as jhm8071
Joined
·
5,143 Posts
I dont get this. News says the guy pulled a hammer out of his bag before being shot.
He was probably just going to swing at a loose nail behind the guard's head. I mean, after following someone with a knife, having the cops called on him, telling the guard he would be back, actually coming back, threatening the guard, he wouldn't dream of actually using it on someone would he? The charges are ridiculous.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
The article linked in OP said "When the man reached inside his bag witnesses say the guard fired several shots."

Later a witness said there was no telling what the guy would of done with a hammer.

Here is the part in article 35 that I think will apply.


2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless: (a) The actor reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he or she knows that with complete personal safety, to oneself and others he or she may avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that the actor is under no duty to retreat if he or she is: (i) in his or her dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or (ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter's direction, acting pursuant to section 35.30; or (b) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible criminal sexual act or robbery; or (c) He or she reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.

The most important aspect in my opinion is could he retreat without putting himself and others in danger.
From the article we dont know. The residents make it sound like the guy had it coming.

This is what I imagine being the scenario and I dont know if it happened this way or not.

I imagine the guy coming back with his bag. I imagine the people there coming out to see what the commotion
was all about. I am assuming that when the hammer came out of the bag, if it did before the guy being shot
the people watching did not attempt to run but rather wanted to see what was going to happen. So I think this
case really boils down to, 1. how far away was this guy when he pulled the hammer to the security guard and
bystanders, and 2. If the guard and onlookers ran at first site of hammer would they have been safe?

Finally I will use some good old fashion NYF thinking here lol. As soon as the guy returned shouldn't the guard
of told all the people to get inside and call the police while retreating to a safe place where he can monitor
the situation to ensure others safety? He knew the guy was pissed and threatened to come back. He is a guard
not a LEO and by purposefully confronting the individual he escalated the whole situation.

Lastly, if someones merely says they are going to kill you, you cant just shoot them unless you want to be arrested
and most likely convicted.


Edit: in the first altercation the man had a knife which to me is potentially more deadly then a hammer. What I mean by that is a knife can cut you in more vital areas then the areas in which a hammer needs to hit you to cause death. So if the BG's intent was to cause serious bodily harm or death he probably would of stuck to a knife. If his previous knife was taken then even a kitchen knife would of worked.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,700 Posts
A young man i know has a steel plate in his head from a hammer attack. My nieces ex bf hit her current one just once, almost killed him. He would have gone away for it short term but he offed himself instead. Sad deal, all preventable.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
687 Posts
I can't tell from the article what time of day the latter incident took place. Comments are made about retreating. There very well could have been time to retreat if you "KNOW' there is a hammer in the bag. Is it reaonable to believe that yours or others life in in immediate danger with this clown? What happens if he reaches in...you start to retreat and it isn't a hammer in the bag. I believe a reasonable person could have believed they were in immediated danger of this guy using deadly physical force. All the facts from the site will be needed to determine this. I personall don't think an intended victim should have the burden of retreating.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top