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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.democratandchronicle.com...cation-with-off-duty-Rochester-police-officer

Off-duty Rochester Police Officer gets rear ended, driver/passenger don't stick around and get back in their car and take off. Off-duty follows - catches up with them and confronts them (article doesn't mention if the off-duty ID'ed himself as a Police Officer). Two perps start punching off-duty in the head. Off-duty draws personal weapon, fires, hits and wounds both (non life threatening).

Now - a hit-and-run MVA with no injuries is just a traffic infraction. Yet the off-duty followed anyway, got himself into a 2-on-1 situation and resorted to deadly physical force against two unarmed individuals. Will be interesting to see how this pans out as it will go to a grand jury. I'm not taking sides as I don't have enough information - but look at how the Roderick Scott and George Zimmerman cases panned out.

In any event - glad the officer's injuries weren't serious and two bad guys are off the street.
 

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I belive the definition of self defence is the least amout of force needed to repel the attack. If they had to be dead to stop them then so be it. 2 on 1?...he should have uh....nevermind. If you ram into me and take off you better pray you get arrested.
 

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I don't understand where this notion that "He didn't have a weapon" = "Your life could not possible be in danger."

Has no one ever been beaten to death? :O
 

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Will be interesting to say the least.

Lets hope that him following the bad guys doesn't result in him getting charges once pressure builds.
 

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Leaving the scene of an accident is not a traffic violation, it's a crime.

Repeated punches to the head? I'd say that he was presented with not only the use of deadly force, but also a disparity of force with TWO of them attacking him.

Again, before we all go off and MMQB this, let's get the facts, not the press version.
 

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Again, before we all go off and MMQB this, let's get the facts, not the press version.
Exactly.

And here are more details being released to the media:

http://rochester.ynn.com/content/top_stories/594918/off-duty-officer-involved-in-shooting/

From the article:

The Chief says that's when the two men got out of the car and assaulted Santiago.
"Basically while he was seated in his vehicle both individuals proceeded to punch him about the face and head," said Chief Sheppard.
"During the course of that assault he defended himself by firing his personally owned firearm multiple times and suspects fled the area," James Sheppard said.

So, an important point there: Santiago was attcked and couldn't even get out of his car. He was sitting in the seat when he fired.
 

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Exactly.

And here are more details being released to the media:

Off-Duty Officer Involved in Shooting - YNN, Your News Now

From the article:

The Chief says that's when the two men got out of the car and assaulted Santiago.
"Basically while he was seated in his vehicle both individuals proceeded to punch him about the face and head," said Chief Sheppard.
"During the course of that assault he defended himself by firing his personally owned firearm multiple times and suspects fled the area," James Sheppard said.

So, an important point there: Santiago was attcked and couldn't even get out of his car. He was sitting in the seat when he fired.
Ooo...mysterious. :lurk:
 

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Thanks OP.

BTW: call me. Got some stuff fer ya!
 

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We spend most of our time in one, but we never consider how to fight while in our vehicles.....


Methinks you should!

Look for our class soon!!
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Dave... leaving the scene without injuries is a violation (see V&T section 600 sub 1 - New York Vehicle & Traffic - Article 22 - § 600 Leaving Scene of an Incident Without Reporting - New York Attorney Resources - New York Laws). Only when there's an injury does it escalate to a B Misdemenaor which would not have applied in this case.

I had a similar incident on 490 several years ago... got rear ended... called it into 911, told them to move it to the shoulder so we're not blocking rush hour traffic over some scraped paint, talked with the guys who hit me - as I was getting their info, they suddenly grabbed their paperwork from me and sped off. I was a peace officer at the time but I didn't ID myself as such because being unarmed, off-duty and out of jurisdiction at the time - why create more headaches? I stayed and waited for MCSO to do their paperwork. Later on, the deputy caught up with them, gave me a call and said he could write a ticket for an infraction and I said not to worry about it - damage to car was superficial, I didn't want to spend hours dealing with insurance headaches over nothing, and the charge would have got knocked down to a parking ticket during court depositions anyway - so why bother?

My questions are - did the off-duty identify himself as a Police Officer at any time during the incident? Did he exchange any information with the other motorist - at the very least getting the plate # off the other car - before they took off? What's RPD's protocol for off-duty officers who find themselves in these situations?

I'm not laying any blame or fault on Officer Santiago based on the scant information the press has released. The DA has some work to do first. But based on what information we have, this sounds more like a "stand your ground" shooting (i.e., Zimmerman) than an Article 35 shooting... and if Officer Santiago was Citizen Santiago - how would this have played out? Being off-duty, did the officer have a duty to retreat as opposed to pursuing the vehicle over a traffic infraction? That's where the sauce thickens. Again - I hope the officer has a quick recovery from his injuries and he doesn't face charges or discipline... but this could have happened to any one of us and we don't have a police department or union to protect us.
 

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Santiago was attacked and couldn't even get out of his car. He was sitting in the seat when he fired.
I don't/didn't see any expansion/clarification on the above.

Was his car boxed in and gas pedal broken, or had he shut the engine off?
The 1st I could see being a factor, the second makes 0 sense if the first wasn't true, and for the 3rd, one would imagine a LEO who presumably has had road duty and actual training at least once in his carreer would know to not shut down the engine unless leaving the car unguarded for a long period or time, gassing it up, or parking it for the off shift, but never during a traffic stop or other vehicle related incident, especially if it just involved persuit of some type.

Presuming not boxed, engine running and functional controls, he somehow managed to get hands on his firearm but couldn't manage to slap the trans in gear and womp the gas to escape?

This is not a shoulda~coulda~woulda thing, nor is it an attempt to ride a LEO.
I'm truly curious as to why just driving off wasn't an option.
I'm aware we will likely never know the exact details, but that just leaves the line of questioning standing as a 'why not?'

I mean I'm not certified in any way, shape or form, but am well aware of the stupidity of (1) chasing someone for any reason beyond getting a good description and plate number then breaking off, (2) not sitting there like a toad when someone jumps out of thier car and moves toward me in anger, and (3) not dropping the transmission in gear and preparing to dart should the people that were just chased down jump out of thier car and come at me.
 

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Two comments
If he was not an LEO what would happen
2 why the race card , bad people come in all colors
 

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Two comments
If he was not an LEO what would happen
2 why the race card , bad people come in all colors
Ask Al Sharpton and his crew. I guess when they are "not white?" then it takes more of a threat to defend yourself or something? I don't know, I can't follow it with the race card being thrown around so much.
 

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when you raise your hands expect full retaliation. these 2 hit and runners got what they had coming, plain and simple. "repeated blows to the head" from 2 men???... these clowns obviously had no business fighting with anyone. when you punch you eliminate the threat with the first shot or you have no business raising your hands at all. these 2 clowns learned that the hard way.
 
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