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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Considering changing my carry option~ My background i am not a police officer but i do have peace officer status. I dont go around trying to be a cop but i am a firm believer of helping those in danger. And more than once i have stepped in to assure some one is safe. That being said after talking to a friend and former cop who has had to roll around with someone while carrying (on duty and off) I am concerned with my firearm falling out of my hostler during a scuffle. I currently use a Desanties speed scabbard or a pocket Nemesis . Thanks~
 

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Generally speaking, if you open carry (i.e., on-duty police officer) - always go with a retention holder... if you conceal carry - either or.

Me personally, I prefer the extra security of a retention holder (DeSantis DHS/ICE) when carrying concealed. With practice, draw times between different holster types becomes negligible.

That said... as a peace officer, off duty is OFF DUTY. So be well aware that you likely will not be indemnified for any off duty acts you may commit where someone gets hurt or killed, and other than getting a professional courtesy during a traffic stop - don't think you can flash your badge and save the day either. On the other hand, you may want to avoid situations where you feel the need to get involved in a scuffle.
 

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i dont need any straps getting in the way of me drawing a gun, or to fumble with.

ive literally rolled around, done yard work, etc...and no issues with a gun coming out of a passive retention holster (leather, kydex, or hybrid)

the idea of a CCW is that no one knows you have one. Open carrying they KNOW you have one, and will go for it.
 

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i have both styles, but primarily use open-top holsters when it comes to edc. gravity and the retention of the holster itself combined with that of my belt and standard american body fat provides enough security without compromising speed of draw or fumbling risks in a scuffle. do what you feel is most appropriate for you, though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Generally speaking, if you open carry (i.e., on-duty police officer) - always go with a retention holder... if you conceal carry - either or.

Me personally, I prefer the extra security of a retention holder (DeSantis DHS/ICE) when carrying concealed. With practice, draw times between different holster types becomes negligible.

That said... as a peace officer, off duty is OFF DUTY. So be well aware that you likely will not be indemnified for any off duty acts you may commit where someone gets hurt or killed, and other than getting a professional courtesy during a traffic stop - don't think you can flash your badge and save the day either. On the other hand, you may want to avoid situations where you feel the need to get involved in a scuffle.
Nothing like that ever~ Like i said i dont do anything off duty i wouldnt do if i WASNT a peace officer. But more than once i have come upon a situation of someone else in trouble that as a man i stepped up and intervened as i would hope someone would for my wife or stepdaughter. We all know a scenario like that could turn into a scuffle. (im talking about something like a young lady being hit by a man or a few thugs harassing an elderly person) These are two for instances ive dealt with neither were physical altercations but things can turn ugly quick. I am not able to walk away leaving someone helpless in harms way thats just how i was raised. Please dont misinterpret Im not a wanna be cop and am not looking to be a hero. And i never have even thought of pulling my gun in any situation.As far as carry options luck favors the prepared is all~
 

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I've tried almost every reasonable way to get my gun to come out of my holster without taking it out on purpose. My Milt Sparks and my Durbin IWB's work just fine.

The overall design of the holster should be the factor that keeps it secure. Extra straps, buttons, levers, etc only add time. if you can negate that extra time, even if it is a fraction of a second, then roll with it.

I'd rather be spending that fraction of a second moving, communicating, or shooting - basically doing anything - rather than spending that timeframe unlocking my gun from its holster.

I'll echo this: If you have to or decide to open carry for any reason, then you should have some sort of retention. Concealed is concealed. If you think someone will magically see your gun if you are properly concealed, and then try to take it, you should augment your skills with a retention and disarm class. Also, you may want to rethink how you get involved with a situation so that you do not have that level of exposure. I really cannot remember a story of a CCW-er getting into a gun grab situation....anyone else? Just curious.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
RochPersDef;267838 Also said:
Let me explain the two incidents i am talking about as i dont want anyone to misinterpret and think im some gung~ho cop wanna be because it appears thats how its coming across~ First incident young man wearing bloods colors(just a wanna be) had an approximately 17 year old young lady pinned against a wall smacking her in the face trying to kiss her. She was saying get off me and leave me alone. I stepped up and said excuse me do you need help the thug said a few comments i told him to STF~UP and said i already called the police(never really had a chance to but i knew my wife who was across the street in the car would be calling any way) that was enough for the girl to step away as the thugs attention was now on me. Nothing further happened but it could of. Police showed gave a description of the man (i knew the officer) and was on my way.
Second time a few thugs where throwing tiny rocks at an elderly woman that time i said aunt Helen are you okay and escorted her from the area (of course not really my aunt) the 3 little thugs being cowards walked away but things could happen. Like i said before if it was my mother sister wife or daughter i would hope any man would step up and do the same. In addition i CCW(not on my badge just permit) at my second job doing security. Hence the concern.
 

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No one was questioning you. It was a general statement. I applaud that you are of the mindset to fix what's wrong. That's what a true Sheepdog will do. I've lost track of the times I have stepped in when there was an incident. Thankfully, due to my own training and past experience, things have worked out well. Tactically, when you enter a situation that you are not directly involved with, you need to consider every option to protect yourself. If you have a gun, and you involve yourself in something, have a plan to negate your exposure and risk of losing the gun or getting hurt. Have a plan to minimize the risk to you or your loved ones in the first place. Also, the fact that one is carrying a gun does not mean they are required to act. It does not mean you have this magic shield either.

Bravery and the willingness to act comes from within, not from the gear you carry.

My first option is to call 911. Then, verbalization - if appropriate - comes next. If, and only if someone is about to be hurt or killed, will I consider solving the problem. If you use good tactics today, you'll be around to use them later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
No one was questioning you. It was a general statement. I applaud that you are of the mindset to fix what's wrong. That's what a true Sheepdog will do. I've lost track of the times I have stepped in when there was an incident. Thankfully, due to my own training and past experience, things have worked out well. Tactically, when you enter a situation that you are not directly involved with, you need to consider every option to protect yourself. If you have a gun, and you involve yourself in something, have a plan to negate your exposure and risk of losing the gun or getting hurt. Have a plan to minimize the risk to you or your loved ones in the first place. Also, the fact that one is carrying a gun does not mean they are required to act. It does not mean you have this magic shield either.

Bravery and the willingness to act comes from within, not from the gear you carry.

My first option is to call 911. Then, verbalization - if appropriate - comes next. If, and only if someone is about to be hurt or killed, will I consider solving the problem. If you use good tactics today, you'll be around to use them later.
Well said and i agree~ (I do have some training but you can never have enough) You ever offer any courses down Ulster county way Roch?
 

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Not usually. We would come if you want to host though!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Not usually. We would come if you want to host though!
Funds are short right now(bought to many guns lol) Maybe we can set something up down the road ~how many would you need for a class? Several of us were considering having the instructor who does training for the local county swat (friend of a friend) setting up a class but i dont think it would be suited to well for most (including myself) My department has minimal requirements that i am not satisfied with. My concerns are line of fire retention ect.
 

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PM me and we can discuss......
 

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Even in open-carry states, gun grabs when OC'ing are extremely rare. Bad guy sees good guy with gun - they tend to steer clear of the hardened target. In law enforcement - gun grabs do happen, rarely, but not unheard of - and that's usually when the LEO is working alone and gets in a scuffle with someone he's trying to arrest. On the other hand - when I have OC'ed - I would wear clothing similar to the color of the gun and holster so it's not screaming for attention. I'm not gonna try to affect an arrest either. I'm not a cop, I don't carry cuffs... it's just there for self defense or the defense of another and nothing more.

Going back to the original topic, you really want to avoid a hands-on situation with someone who's not attacking you unless absolutely necessary. The bad guy could have a knife or other sharp object on him - not to mention any number of blood-borne pathogens, or the mere fact he could simply kick the sh!t out of you and knocking you out you unconscious. Keeping a good distance - to allow you enough time to either flee, deploy defense tactics, or draw your weapon and fire if necessary - is going to be key.

As Dave stated - call 911 first, try to use verbal commands to get compliance. If it were me walking upon someone beating the crap out of another - and I'm talking about where there's a significant size/strength difference between the two - assess situation, keep my distance, 911 if possible, draw weapon and use verbal commands for compliance. Some will say drawing my weapon is not necessary - but a good blow to the head in the right place will put someone in a life or death situation.

In my younger days, I've broken up my share of fights and sometimes things didn't work well for me. One time I'm in a beer area of a large concert at the State Fairgrounds - dude getting his ass kicked - I got beer muscles going, so I pulled the guy winning off the guy losing... the guy losing charges me and sends me flying. So I off to the first aid area I go as my elbow was cut open and missed the Ramones' entire set. In hindsight - I should have just let the two drunks keep on brawling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Even in open-carry states, gun grabs when OC'ing are extremely rare. Bad guy sees good guy with gun - they tend to steer clear of the hardened target. In law enforcement - gun grabs do happen, rarely, but not unheard of - and that's usually when the LEO is working alone and gets in a scuffle with someone he's trying to arrest. On the other hand - when I have OC'ed - I would wear clothing similar to the color of the gun and holster so it's not screaming for attention. I'm not gonna try to affect an arrest either. I'm not a cop, I don't carry cuffs... it's just there for self defense or the defense of another and nothing more.

Going back to the original topic, you really want to avoid a hands-on situation with someone who's not attacking you unless absolutely necessary. The bad guy could have a knife or other sharp object on him - not to mention any number of blood-borne pathogens, or the mere fact he could simply kick the sh!t out of you and knocking you out you unconscious. Keeping a good distance - to allow you enough time to either flee, deploy defense tactics, or draw your weapon and fire if necessary - is going to be key.

As Dave stated - call 911 first, try to use verbal commands to get compliance. If it were me walking upon someone beating the crap out of another - and I'm talking about where there's a significant size/strength difference between the two - assess situation, keep my distance, 911 if possible, draw weapon and use verbal commands for compliance. Some will say drawing my weapon is not necessary - but a good blow to the head in the right place will put someone in a life or death situation.

In my younger days, I've broken up my share of fights and sometimes things didn't work well for me. One time I'm in a beer area of a large concert at the State Fairgrounds - dude getting his ass kicked - I got beer muscles going, so I pulled the guy winning off the guy losing... the guy losing charges me and sends me flying. So I off to the first aid area I go as my elbow was cut open and missed the Ramones' entire set. In hindsight - I should have just let the two drunks keep on brawling.
These are all basics i know 17 years of being a correction officer(most always unarmed in hairy situations) The PC skills are 2nd nature to me and im very good at them. My concern is does it really make a huge difference between and open top that holds the gun snug or one with a thumb snap if a scuffle was UNAVOIDABLE? And yes carrying concealed only.
 

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These are all basics i know 17 years of being a correction officer(most always unarmed in hairy situations) The PC skills are 2nd nature to me and im very good at them. My concern is does it really make a huge difference between and open top that holds the gun snug or one with a thumb snap if a scuffle was UNAVOIDABLE? And yes carrying concealed only.
I Open Carry almost all the time...I am more concerned about retention from falling off my horse then a "gun grab" as gun grabs are extremely rare. Where I ride, horse may stumble and you are out of the saddle and on the ground. (no so rare)

That said, I have full flap hunting holsters and I have holsters I use when in town. Like Nessman, my town holsters blend with what I am wearing and are not obtrusive, but they also do not have a flap for extra retention. My BIL tried (I was allowing him to try) take my CZ85 out of my Alessi leather holster (when I was wearing it)...he couldn't do it, yet I can remove it at will. Excellent passive retention...(Made right there in Buffalo too). There is no worry about the pistol falling out at an inopportune time.

I don't wear that combination hunting or horseback riding, but for in town it's perfect.

To the "gun grab" worriers...sorry, does not happen. A criminal on notice that you can defend yourself, is an informed criminal, and they will generally just leave you alone to work weaker prey. Over 40 years of OC experience, that is what I have found. And no concerns about a "display with the intent to intimidate" charge.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I Open Carry almost all the time...I am more concerned about retention from falling off my horse then a "gun grab" as gun grabs are extremely rare. Where I ride, horse may stumble and you are out of the saddle and on the ground. (no so rare)

That said, I have full flap hunting holsters and I have holsters I use when in town. Like Nessman, my town holsters blend with what I am wearing and are not obtrusive, but they also do not have a flap for extra retention. My BIL tried (I was allowing him to try) take my CZ85 out of my Alessi leather holster (when I was wearing it)...he couldn't do it, yet I can remove it at will. Excellent passive retention...(Made right there in Buffalo too). There is no worry about the pistol falling out at an inopportune time.

I don't wear that combination hunting or horseback riding, but for in town it's perfect.

To the "gun grab" worriers...sorry, does not happen. A criminal on notice that you can defend yourself, is an informed criminal, and they will generally just leave you alone to work weaker prey. Over 40 years of OC experience, that is what I have found. And no concerns about a "display with the intent to intimidate" charge.
More concerned with it falling out than a gun grab~
 

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Some years ago - I was at a concert at the Harro East Ballroom in Rochester... an off-duty RPD was in attendance... not as security but as a concert goer. The story goes he was in the mosh pit and somehow his weapon got loose and ended up on the ground.

Ah here we go...

Tucson Weekly: Soundbites (December 18 - December 24, 1997)

PISTOL TRIPPED: Just when you thought moshing was safe, a recent sound bite from a KMFDM press release reads more like something from Chuck Shepherd's "News of the Weird." Apparently at KMFDM's Rochester, N.Y., show at the Harro East Club, a fan in the mosh pit was not, as he initially thought, kicking around an empty beer bottle. In fact, he was playing a potentially fatal game of footsie with a loaded 9mm Beretta, safety off. It's a fact of life that guns are everywhere these days. What's interesting in this instance is that this particular 9mm happened to belong to an off-duty police officer who, in the midst of dancing, dropped it unnoticed in the melee. It was kicked around for who knows how long. Security retrieved the weapon, and no one was harmed.
Great show by the way - followed by Lords of Acid the next night ...
 
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