Question on Winchester recipe for 9MM and OAL

10015 Views 16 Replies 7 Participants Last post by rboss32, May 20, 2013

rboss32

Discussion Starter · May 17, 2013

I just got my 9MM dies in the mail. I set them up, and got the brass out of the tumbler.

I've got the following:

Winchester Small Pistol Primers
Winchester WSF powder
115GR plated round nose projectiles from RMR.

The recipe below is what i'm using. I've got the lee dropping 5.0grains of powder evenly with this, the next size under was dropping only 4.7

I noticed that in the Hornady 9th edition they list their 115GR FMJ loads to be a OAL of 1.100" This one is calling to be at 1.169".

Since there is no listing for RMR bullets, i'm at a loss here. What OAL do I use?

It's for a Hipoint 9MM carbine.

I'm trying out the following recipe:

115 GR. FMJ

Winchester

WSF

.355"

1.169"

4.9

1060 (mIn)

24,200 PSI

5.7

1195 (max)

31,900 PSI

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pappasue

· #2 · May 17, 2013

First load a bullet to 1.169 OAL and see if it will chamber and eject. Almost every bullet is different because even if it is the same weight the bullet might be designed different so every new bullet the OAL should be checked in your rifle's chamber. The powder charge shouldn't chane if you load a 115gr fmj hornady, nosler or RMR but the OAL might be different in your gun.
I check the OAL about every 5-10 loaded rounds as your dies might back out or the bullet seater might loosen up.
Benchloaders want the bullet to almost touch the lands in the belief that gives the best accuracy.

VARMINT223

· #3 · May 17, 2013

I use factory ammo as the baseline for my reloads. If the factory ammo cycles for me, I use those dimensions. I usually find factory OAL shorter than that specified in the reload manuals for my 9mm and .45ACP (SAMMI). I would treat LRN and FMJ-RN the same.

rboss32

Discussion Starter · #4 · May 17, 2013

VARMINT223 said:
I use factory ammo as the baseline for my reloads. If the factory ammo cycles for me, I use those dimensions. I usually find factory OAL shorter than that specified in the reload manuals for my 9mm and .45ACP (SAMMI). I would treat LRN and FMJ-RN the same.

Ok, So now what about the pressures as the OAL is shortened?

I mean at 1.169" the 115GR bullet is hardly in the case. It seems quite long. Most of the 9MM i've ever purchased has a way shorter OAL.

I'm confused here. Wouldn't shortening the OAL increase pressure quickly?

VARMINT223

· #5 · May 17, 2013

rboss32 said:
Ok, So now what about the pressures as the OAL is shortened?

I mean at 1.169" the 115GR bullet is hardly in the case. It seems quite long. Most of the 9MM i've ever purchased has a way shorter OAL.

I'm confused here. Wouldn't shortening the OAL increase pressure quickly?

I'm thinking about what you wrote.

In the past for my Sigs 9mm and Springfield 1911's, as loaded per Speer/Hornady reloading books which I have to believe are SAMMI based. At those COAL, the cartridges cocked and jammed in my mags. So I measured factory ammo that worked.

Never any problems w/flat primers or signs of overload. As a rule of thumb I never push my powder loads past 80% maximum.

rboss32

Discussion Starter · #6 · May 17, 2013

Well I loaded sets of 5 of each length:

1.167
1.162
1.155

all at 5.0gr WSF.

Figure ill have to work it up from there. They all seem to chamber fine ill really test it at the range. Figure reduce OAL slowly to watch pressure.

Evild

· #7 · May 17, 2013

I use 1.130, why, because 25 years ago that's what I used for what ever reason and never changed

57cal

· #8 · May 17, 2013

had a hard time finding unique powder, which I like for pistol calibers. lgs recommended 700x, 4.3 grains w/a 115 fmj, works great in glock....for what its worth....

pappasue

· #9 · May 17, 2013

I am looking at my modern reloading book by lee and it has 115 gr copper plated oal at low end 1.13 high end 1.142 with most loads at 1.140. I love this book, best 20 bucks I have spent in awhile.

pseudonymity

· #10 · May 17, 2013

I am not sure that I would start at 5g for a plated bullet, especially if you are loading it short which will increase pressures. You are using FMJ loading data for a plated bullet, which is probably not a great idea. I would suggest using a start point between lead and FMJ data for powder and load them as long as you can and still fit in the chamber. Unfortunately, pulling a HP apart to check the chamber is a bit more of a pain than a typical pistol.

I have to be honest - I shoot a lot of plated 9mm 124g w/4.0g of HP38 @1.13, but I do get barrel leading. I would not want to scrub lead out of a HP barrel, they are a pain to disassemble and you need some type of gun vise to hold the action while you scrub it.

rboss32

Discussion Starter · #11 · May 17, 2013

I would have gotten Winchester 231, or titegroup, but as we all know, powder is impossible to find. I settled for some WSF as I saw it can load 9MM. I bought it when I got the H110 for the .44 Magnum to try and level out that hazmat fee.

Does that Lee book have any loads for WSF? It seems like they are hard to find, so it's probably kept on the very safe side. Maybe it wasn't the best powder choice. It seems though when you find a good load with it, it's quite accurate, and has good velocity as well....

The hornady book just gives max and min cartridge lengths, nothing particular to the load. Seems like the hornady book could be a bit better in my opinion. It's not bad for the $29.99 it was. I just expected a touch more out of it.
Anyone on this board use WSF for 9MM? Maybe you can chime in.

Thanks!

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rboss32

Discussion Starter · #12 · May 18, 2013

On RMR's website, it says to load with FMJ data, as lead is too slow. I'm mixed about it, that's why I only made a few of each. I've read for hours on the WSF powder and 9MM reloading. It seems that the data out there is very slim. Probably not a good choice to start with for the 9MM.

The minimum load is 4.9 grain, so I'm at 5.0. Max is 5.7 I feel that reducing the OAL slightly will bump pressures up, but i'm doing that in small amounts to see what's going on.

I'm going to start shooting longer to shorter, checking the brass for signs of pressure and well common sense if I feel the "uh oh" feeling happening.

I feel that the OAL is set at max on it, since Winchester just doesn't have much data for the powder in 9MM. It seems to be very popular in .40 S&W and .45.

Maybe i'll end up trading it with someone for something else.

It is a pain to take apart. I'm going to test them in the chamber again anyways. I'll see what happens. HP's are quite forgiving ammo wise, they will eat about anything you give them.

pseudonymity said:
I am not sure that I would start at 5g for a plated bullet, especially if you are loading it short which will increase pressures. You are using FMJ loading data for a plated bullet, which is probably not a great idea. I would suggest using a start point between lead and FMJ data for powder and load them as long as you can and still fit in the chamber. Unfortunately, pulling a HP apart to check the chamber is a bit more of a pain than a typical pistol.

I have to be honest - I shoot a lot of plated 9mm 124g w/4.0g of HP38 @1.13, but I do get barrel leading. I would not want to scrub lead out of a HP barrel, they are a pain to disassemble and you need some type of gun vise to hold the action while you scrub it.

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rboss32

Discussion Starter · #13 · May 19, 2013 (Edited)

Today was test day for this load.

I'm reporting back with all 10 fingers still. That's a good thing right?

Range Report:

I loaded 5.0 grains of Winchester Super Field into once fired 9MM casings. Casings were not trimmed at all, Just double checked for cracks etc.

I loaded the following:

Winchester Small Pistol Primer
5.0 Grains Winchester Super Field (WSF powder).
.355 115GR Plated 9MM bullet from RMR (Rockey Mnt. Reloading)
Seated to 1.157"
Light-like medium crimp.

Ran through lee dies and lee factory crimp die.

These sure shot great. I shot them out of a 9MM HiPoint 995 carbine rifle.

Failure to feed- 0
Failure to eject- 0
Stuck casings- 0
buldged casings -0
flat primers- 0

I have the HiPoint set up with a red-dot optic on it, bench rested I was shooting 3/4"-1.5" groups with no strays. Looks like this rifle likes this load.

The load is semi-snappy. It doesn't have much of a punch to it. It's a bit under the snap of Tula 9MM factory ammo.

With factory Tula, and Remington I would normally at 50 Yards get a group of about 3". I've got that down to 1" - 1.5" about. Very consistant. It makes me want to get a 3-9x40 on this hi point now!

Things I did notice about loading 9MM with WSF. It's dirty! It leaves the brass quite dirty, but there is no smoking at all. It's got good velocity as far as I can tell, and even shooting.

I came back, stepped it up to 5.3 grains at 1.157" OAL, and it shot great as well. I'm going to stick with this one. I'm not sure if I was shooting this in a 9MM handgun I would like the powder, it's got a snap. But then again, out of a rifle, it's nothing.

When I had tested the 1.167" OAL, the rifle hated it, I had about 3" group at 25 Yards.
When I had tested the 1.162" OAL, the rifle tightened up, I had about a 1.5" group at 25 Yards
When I had tested teh 1.157-1.160" OAL the rifle grouped very nice at about 1" or less.

Looks like i've found the sweet spot for this cheap gun. Never dreamed my hi point would group like this!

Figured I would update, as there is not much info on the 9MM reloading with WSF powder.

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pappasue

· #14 · May 19, 2013

Sounds great and the 9mm hasn't got much kick even out of a pistol.

rboss32

Discussion Starter · #15 · May 20, 2013

pappasue said:
Sounds great and the 9mm hasn't got much kick even out of a pistol.

Not much, these do have a bit of a snap when I got up to 5.2-5.3 grain with the reduced OAL. It's a good snap though. 16" barrel changes it all around though.

Overall. Check out the powder if you can't find others out there. Looks like WSF is not sold out like everything else usually.

nessman

· #16 · May 20, 2013

I seat to an OAL of 1.150-1.160" - (seems to vary a bit with my press with each round) - but it's within spec and my SIG eats them up with out a hiccup.

I find loading powder to the maximum (in this case - 4.9gr of Win 231 for 115gr FMJ) works the best - and feels like factory loads.

Also - I've seen recommendations that you load plated bullets as you would for FMJ. I haven't tried it yet (waiting for some plated 124gr to be shipped).

rboss32

Discussion Starter · #17 · May 20, 2013

nessman said:
I seat to an OAL of 1.150-1.160" - (seems to vary a bit with my press with each round) - but it's within spec and my SIG eats them up with out a hiccup.

I find loading powder to the maximum (in this case - 4.9gr of Win 231 for 115gr FMJ) works the best - and feels like factory loads.

Also - I've seen recommendations that you load plated bullets as you would for FMJ. I haven't tried it yet (waiting for some plated 124gr to be shipped).

It's recommended on RMR's website. They are by far the best deal I see on 9MM bullets. It's the free shipping that juices the deal up. I was using the new hornady scale and I was weighing their bullets. They were all 115-115.5. I guess not match grade but damn good for bulk bullets!

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