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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Idk if you guys have been following this case...pretty interesting, the ATFs ruling that trusts are not considered persons...so it opens the whole NFA conversation about new civilian Machine guns. Apparently a couple guys have the stamp for a post 86 machine gun on a form 1....approved by the atf. 3 lawsuits pending currently, also there is at least 1 that has already been converted.

Thread
ATF approved post 1986 machine guns for NFA trusts--legal action pending--updated 10/7/14 - AR15.COM

Law office site
Did ATF's Determination on NICS Checks Open the Door for Manufacture of New Machineguns for Trusts? | Prince Law Offices, P.C.

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ATF Just Approved the First New Civilian Machine Gun in 28 Years. By Accident. - The Truth About Guns

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SCOTUS per Miller (at the very least) says if the military can have em then We The Pissants can have them.... Jus sayin
 

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If a trust can't have then, then neither could a corporation (except for ones it manufactured under a suitable license, ones with a "demo letter" or ones for "research purposes").

There's a lot of corporations that have them for business purposes. I can't see the blackwater folks (or whatever they're called these days) just deciding they can do without having any on US soil, or Bloomberg's bodyguards either.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
They couldn't before the letter saying trusts are not persons.....this could get interesting
 

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WOW- this is going to get interesting. How the hell is this not splashed all over the news? I have a couple of comments I am going to refrain from making since I DO NOT want togive the other side any ideas how to win this case- lets all sit back and watch.

Worst case- the court decides the stamp is improper, needs to be returned and the weapon converted back to semi-auto. I dont see how the citizens involved could be faced with anything more (like jail time for violating GCA/NFA) since this is clear good faith attempt to comply and under approval of government agency. Kind of like if the DMV figured out something was worng with the eye chart and someone issued a license had actually failed to qualify. They could cancel the license but I cant image any court even considering a case for driving without a license, due to the license being invalid, during the timeframe before the court agreed it was invalid. (Reminder: driving is not a constitutionaly protected activity)

Could be more interesting if they court decides in a way that clarifies that trusts cannot do this and so going forward no more are issued and this doesnt happen again, but decides to leave the existing 100 or so stamps and weapons on the market as legally owned. Creating a set of legal machines guns as pre-86 plus a handfull made in 2014.

Of course- this is a great case to take all the way and could see the entire GCA and NFA fall apart!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Yeah...this is big I'm not sure how it is not everywhere now....apparently there are some big namd lawyers invoked too
 

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Nothing will come out of it, NFA and GCA will never get overturned in courts. This **** must be repealed through Congress. I'm REALLY glad my rights had an expiration date of 1986!

Do you guys still think Republicans are PRO gun? This is a joke and they pulled a veil over our very own eyes. RINOs making speeches at NRA conventions, getting applause and support, what a freaking joke. They are NOT pro gun or NFA/GCA would have been repealed already.

They are going to WIN the Senate a month from now, what is THEIR excuse for not repealing NFA/GCA, sporting and importation clauses? Obama? There are ways around his veto. This **** can be destroyed in days and be over with. Gun owners need to grow some balls and go on the offensive.
 

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Nothing will come out of it, NFA and GCA will never get overturned in courts.
There's some real money and legal talent on the gun trust side of the equation, I wouldn't be so sure about their defeat, they've a VERY compelling legal argument as it relates to the language change and what the ATF has done.
 

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There is a lot of money being pushed around here. The millionaires with all the machine guns will fight against this too. They don't want to see their collection of pre 86 M16's go from being worth 10 million to be being worth $5,000.
 

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Most of these guys have machine guns that make an M16 look like a Ruger 10/22, the guns they're protecting are typically worth a helluva lot more than $20k a pop. Big Sandy is a perfect representation of what these guys are collecting, the cost to own, let alone shoot one of these guns is not for anyone without some money. Machine Gun community has the money, intelligence, and dedication to wage a legal fight unlike your typical "gun rights" group, these people are SERIOUS.

 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Maybe not even..i guess it depends on the shape and if it is a "special" rifle of any kind...a basic M16..i doubt it.
 

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Most of these guys have machine guns that make an M16 look like a Ruger 10/22, the guns they're protecting are typically worth a helluva lot more than $20k a pop. Big Sandy is a perfect representation of what these guys are collecting, the cost to own, let alone shoot one of these guns is not for anyone without some money. Machine Gun community has the money, intelligence, and dedication to wage a legal fight unlike your typical "gun rights" group, these people are SERIOUS.

These people will go through more $$ in ammo in a weekend than most of us have in our guns and cars combined.

Think about how fast a full auto ma-deuce will burn up cash, let alone one of these...

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Most of these guys have machine guns that make an M16 look like a Ruger 10/22, the guns they're protecting are typically worth a helluva lot more than $20k a pop. Big Sandy is a perfect representation of what these guys are collecting, the cost to own, let alone shoot one of these guns is not for anyone without some money. Machine Gun community has the money, intelligence, and dedication to wage a legal fight unlike your typical "gun rights" group, these people are SERIOUS.

Oh sure,Rub a little salt in the wound.Reminds me of days gone by.Now I want to dig out the class 3's.I must admit I did take advantage of the current values recently and sold my AC556F.FUAC and FUNY.
 

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At one point I had the opportunity to be on the firing line with three GE mini guns.Awesome to say the least.I timed one of them.1000rds 7.62 NATO in 17 seconds.
 

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I disagree with registrations of guns in general but I will say the safety record of the registered machine guns since 1934 has been almost perfect, try matching that with ANY other governmental agency or program, it actually works, and yes it would be great if it could be legally allowed to grow.

However as stated above, it was "the great Conservative" Reagan who signed FOPA in '86, with many Republicans happy to see this issue of civilian machine gun ownership go away, now we cannot even win the fight to hold on to semi-autos (even with the Constitution on our side) I doubt we will ever see full auto equity.
 

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There is a lot of money being pushed around here. The millionaires with all the machine guns will fight against this too. They don't want to see their collection of pre 86 M16's go from being worth 10 million to be being worth $5,000.
I would. There's nothing I'd like better than a new manufactured MP-40 at 900 bucks or so.
 

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I would. There's nothing I'd like better than a new manufactured MP-40 at 900 bucks or so.
If the civilian market for full auto opened up- do you think manufacturers would drop prices to manufactured cost + a normal profit margin,say $1k or do you think they would stick to the going rate of $20k+ and take the huge proffit margin?

I suspect some of both until the ecenomic forces drive the cost down to $1k. At first they may try to take advantage of the high prices, especially with the rush of rich buyers wanting newer designs. I suspect someone (possibly a small manufacturer) will realize there is a larger market for cheaper guns and will introduce a $1k gun, making smaller profit margin but selling 100 times more of them. That would drive prices down. I just hope it doesnt bifurcate the market with good qualty, name brand, manufacturers tht make the original military models (Colt, HK, FN) staying at inflated prices with huge margins, and only low quality junk manufacturers selling at reasonable prices.
 
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