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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
NYS Penal Code 265.16

6. The possession of five or more firearms by any person is presumptive evidence that such person possessed the firearms with the intent to sell same.

I don't see this listed in the exemptions:
(a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11,
265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply)
a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to: - See more at: N.Y. PEN. LAW § 265.20 : NY Code - Section 265.20: Exemptions

a. Sections 265.01, 265.02, 265.03, 265.04, 265.05, 265.10, 265.11, 265.12, 265.13, 265.15 and 270.05 shall not apply to: - See more at: N.Y. PEN. LAW § 265.20 : NY Code - Section 265.20: Exemptions

So does that mean that if I'm on my way to the range with five or more handguns, it means
I'm trying to illegally sell them? Even if they are all on my carry permit?
Or what if I've got three, and the guy I'm carpooling with has three?

Does it even matter, since although not a dealer, it's legal to sell them ...
although soon only with a background check?

I presume this was aimed at someone with no permit, on the way to the nearest drug corner,
five in the car, saying "oh I didn't know those were there, I wasn't going to sell."
 

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It is a presumption. Which means in law that if those facts are established by the government in a prosecution, it is presumed that the person had the intent to unlawfully sell them. A presumption is rebuttable, but places the burden on the defendant to produce some evidence that selling was not his intent. A presumption is one of several ways the courts have ruled that intent can be determined. This is taken from experience. So in general, people with five or more firearms (which does not include ordinary long guns) are usually trying to sell them. But not all, some are just going to the range for example. That would not be intent to sell and thus the prosecution would fail because an essential element is missing. This statute is not a crime itself, it just regards an element necessary to prove whether a crime was committed.
 

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Now, I'm no lawyer and I would have to look up the exact wording, but there needs to be some other "circumstances" that would cause any reasonable person to believe that you had intent to sell the weapon. If an LEO stops you in your car and sees 6 rifles he needs some other reason to believe that you may be selling. These "other" reasons, alone, may not be enough to assume that you are selling , but the combination of "circumstances" + the possession of 6 firearms could be enough for the police to charge.


But that still does not mean that you are guilty. Now you have to prove that you did not have intent to sell unlawfully.

So yeah, this is clearly for the criminal, Basically for when the police intercept and actuall illegal gun sale before it happens. The only real way to charge sale is with a confession, or selling to an undercover... Both are extremely complex and difficult to achieve.
 

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It is a presumption. Which means in law that if those facts are established by the government in a prosecution, it is presumed that the person had the intent to unlawfully sell them. A presumption is rebuttable, but places the burden on the defendant to produce some evidence that selling was not his intent. A presumption is one of several ways the courts have ruled that intent can be determined. This is taken from experience. So in general, people with five or more firearms (which does not include ordinary long guns) are usually trying to sell them. But not all, some are just going to the range for example. That would not be intent to sell and thus the prosecution would fail because an essential element is missing. This statute is not a crime itself, it just regards an element necessary to prove whether a crime was committed.
This really isn't true in response to the OPs question. If the handguns are legally registered to the op
they are not "Firearms" in the context of this provision. This has been covered in many threads.
 

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This really isn't true in response to the OPs question. If the handguns are legally registered to the op
they are not "Firearms" in the context of this provision. This has been covered in many threads.
I was answering only his legal question about what the presumption meant about intent to sell. I did not reference licensed handguns on a pistol license. But yes, as far as licensed handguns, that is correct.

Edit: I don't read those threads since I don't need legal advice on those things, so really wasn't aware there were threads about the topic. I was just answering the OP's question. Sorry if I was confusing to anyone. That was not my intent. Lol.
 

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Now, I'm no lawyer and I would have to look up the exact wording, but there needs to be some other "circumstances" that would cause any reasonable person to believe that you had intent to sell the weapon. If an LEO stops you in your car and sees 6 rifles he needs some other reason to believe that you may be selling. These "other" reasons, alone, may not be enough to assume that you are selling , but the combination of "circumstances" + the possession of 6 firearms could be enough for the police to charge.

But that still does not mean that you are guilty. Now you have to prove that you did not have intent to sell unlawfully.

So yeah, this is clearly for the criminal, Basically for when the police intercept and actuall illegal gun sale before it happens. The only real way to charge sale is with a confession, or selling to an undercover... Both are extremely complex and difficult to achieve.
You stated it quite well, and it really is not to worry. As has been said by most on this site, including many LEOs themselves, you won't be arrested unless you are obviously up to no good. If you are searched for some reason at a traffic stop and they find multiple weapons, as long as they are legal, and you have a plausible explanation and you don't have New Mexico plates, I wouldn't worry. They have to prove all the elements of the crime. This is just presumptive evidence of one element of the crime. A crime with an intent element is called a specific intent crime. The government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the state of the mind of the defendant was with unlawful intent to sell. If they cannot show that was his state of mind, they cannot get the conviction. Since proving what is inside someone's mind is inherently difficult sometimes, the law recognizes presumptions as a way to prove the intent of the defendant.
 

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Not to stir the pot but I found a spoon so; is there a limit on how many handguns you can buy at one time. In my county they issue you a purchasing certificate to take to the LGS with which you can then buy what you want. You then take possesion of the firearm(s) and have ten days to then have them ammended to your liscense. In that ten days they are in limbo and if you were pulled over they would not show on your permit yet, technically these are unregistered firearms. Without sales receipts I could see how this could get ugly.
 

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I was answering only his legal question about what the presumption meant about intent to sell. I did not reference licensed handguns on a pistol license. But yes, as far as licensed handguns, that is correct.

Edit: I don't read those threads since I don't need legal advice on those things, so really wasn't aware there were threads about the topic. I was just answering the OP's question. Sorry if I was confusing to anyone. That was not my intent. Lol.
Its not a presumption because his registered handguns are not firearms. You specifically stated that long guns are not covered so I was assuming you thought registered hand guns were. Just trying to make it clear that this provision of the law does not apply to registered hand guns.
 

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Loki- your county is not typical - in most counties you may not take possession until the handgun is on your permit.
 

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Its not a presumption because his registered handguns are not firearms. You specifically stated that long guns are not covered so I was assuming you thought registered hand guns were. Just trying to make it clear that this provision of the law does not apply to registered hand guns.
No problem, and I would definitely not want anyone to have the wrong idea. We all want everyone on here to be safe and free from unwarranted legal entanglements. And listen, I am not perfect, so if I make a mistake, please point it out. I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong.
 

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And I will also say the penal laws regarding "firearms" are very confusing. Firearm has multiple different meanings depending on what law you are looking at. The SAFE Act made it worse. It is a mess.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thanks. I knew long guns weren't "firearm" in NY law terms (well, prior to SAFE), but thought handguns were ... except that when accompanied by a proper permit, most of the illegalities were exempted. I didn't see this section spelled out in the exemptions, and got curious.
 

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And I will also say the penal laws regarding "firearms" are very confusing. Firearm has multiple different meanings depending on what law you are looking at. The SAFE Act made it worse. It is a mess.
AMEN, these morons at the Albany Politburo should have applied with uniformity the terms the BATF uses, and how they use them, yes there are some ambiguities in the BATF regs as well, but one lexicon of confusion is enough, especially regarding guns.
 

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I know we're luckyier here than most. I always carry a purchasing certificate on me just in case I find something I can't live without. It's refreshing to be able to buy what you want and take it home with you that day to shoot and have fun with, they way it should be for law-abiding citizens.
 
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