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It is like Beretta, you pay for the fancy hats and the advertisement. LOL!
They are really pac-nor barrels with 3P rifling so if you have someone that can cut one for you order a pac-nor blank
and then get your own 'noveske' w/o the branding overhead.
 

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It is like Beretta, you pay for the fancy hats and the advertisement. LOL!
They are really pac-nor barrels with 3P rifling so if you have someone that can cut one for you order a pac-nor blank
and then get your own 'noveske' w/o the branding overhead.
I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Found this on another forum. Interview with John Noveske.

"Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor's shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what's goin' on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Let me back up. You can't call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it's gonna' be much different. It's gonna' be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it's a lot harder than any stainless we've ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that's harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.

...

But, what separates my product from the rest of the products out there, is…the obvious thing's the barrel, and, from start to finish, the barrel goes through more inspection and testing than any other barrel out there that I'm aware of. From the point we pull the steel of the trailer in 12-foot bars, we instantly hardness test and serialize each bar. Then, every bar throughout the entire production process is numbered accordingly to its parent bar. And then, like I said, we designed all the tooling so the diameters on the drills, the bore reamers, the hand-lapping process, the button that does the button-rifling is our design, and it's an improvement over conventional polygonal [rifling] in that you get an extended barrel life over conventional polygonal [rifling].
In fact, I've never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out. In a year and two months, there's never been a report of one of my new buttons…the new types of rifling types [barrels] shooting out. "

And then, when we go to chambering, it's a chambering process that I developed as an employee of Pac-Nor, and I looked at how they were chambering barrels, and I saw the logic in it, and I found ways to improve it. The reamers are all custom-made for me as far as the grind, the angles, the number of flutes. The way we chamber, you never get any scoring on the lands forward of the throat like most other people have to deal with, because our chips are forced out the back. The end result is a beautiful, highly polished chamber. Every barrel is individually inspected to ensure against or prevent reamer wear and have an undersized chamber. They all get gauged on every point, and the design of the chamber is a design I developed after many different evolutions. This was designed to work…to do full-auto mag dumps with [Black Hills] MK 262 Mod 1 [77gr Open-Tip Match (OTM) 5.56x45mm ammo], and now you can sit there and pour as much ammo as you can through the gun on full-auto, and the thing that's gonna' fail is the gas tube. We haven't had any stuck chambers since I came up with the recent chamber, which is called the Noveske…the acronym, which we write on the barrel is "NMm0", and that stands for Noveske Match Mod 0. It's a chamber that gives you 100% reliability with as much retained accuracy as possible. You can have a more accurate chamber design, but you sacrifice battle-grade reliability. You can get stuck cases and other things with different chambers.

So, from the chamber, our barrel is hardness-tested again, just to make sure we didn't lose any hardness in the heat-treating process, and every barrel is serial-numbered at that point. So, now, all the information about the barrel, the heat-treat lot, the packing slip number, the bar number, all that information is now attached to the barrel with a 6-digit serial number, and it goes through the rest of the process with all the information attached to it by that number. And, we keep a log book with every end-user and every bit of information, just in case there was a problem with one customer's barrel, we can track down all the related barrels and pull 'em in in an efficient manner. And we've never had to do that, but I can if I need to. "
 

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Damn, I had no idea they went through that process for those.
 

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I actually just ordered one (16" recon profile in 5.56) and found that article while I was researching them. Nice build on the way...
 

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I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. Found this on another forum. Interview with John Noveske.

"Our stainless barrels are made partially in ourshop and partially in Pac-Nor's shop. And, the relationship that I have with Pac-Nor…I used to work there, and now what's goin' on is I buy steel, I take it to Pac-Nor, when the guys clock out of Pac-Nor, they clock into our barrel production. They machine my blanks with our tooling, which is all made to our design, including the drills, reamers, button, so forth, so on. They stress-relieve to our recipe, and then they give the barrels back to us, and then we finish them all in our shop.

Let me back up. You can't call the barrel that we make a Pac-Nor barrel, because if you call Pac-Nor and order a stainless barrel, it's gonna' be much different. It's gonna' be different in every way from the barrel I sell. So when you say "what kind of materal do they use?", last time I checked, Pac-Nor uses 416 project 70 made by Carpenter, and I use a different material which is technically considered 416R, and it's a lot harder than any stainless we've ever tested from other manufacturers. Our stainless comes in around 32 on the Rockwell C scale, and that's harder even than the call-out for the M16 barrel.

...

But, what separates my product from the rest of the products out there, is…the obvious thing's the barrel, and, from start to finish, the barrel goes through more inspection and testing than any other barrel out there that I'm aware of. From the point we pull the steel of the trailer in 12-foot bars, we instantly hardness test and serialize each bar. Then, every bar throughout the entire production process is numbered accordingly to its parent bar. And then, like I said, we designed all the tooling so the diameters on the drills, the bore reamers, the hand-lapping process, the button that does the button-rifling is our design, and it's an improvement over conventional polygonal [rifling] in that you get an extended barrel life over conventional polygonal [rifling].
In fact, I've never heard of one of our new barrels shooting out. In a year and two months, there's never been a report of one of my new buttons…the new types of rifling types [barrels] shooting out. "

And then, when we go to chambering, it's a chambering process that I developed as an employee of Pac-Nor, and I looked at how they were chambering barrels, and I saw the logic in it, and I found ways to improve it. The reamers are all custom-made for me as far as the grind, the angles, the number of flutes. The way we chamber, you never get any scoring on the lands forward of the throat like most other people have to deal with, because our chips are forced out the back. The end result is a beautiful, highly polished chamber. Every barrel is individually inspected to ensure against or prevent reamer wear and have an undersized chamber. They all get gauged on every point, and the design of the chamber is a design I developed after many different evolutions. This was designed to work…to do full-auto mag dumps with [Black Hills] MK 262 Mod 1 [77gr Open-Tip Match (OTM) 5.56x45mm ammo], and now you can sit there and pour as much ammo as you can through the gun on full-auto, and the thing that's gonna' fail is the gas tube. We haven't had any stuck chambers since I came up with the recent chamber, which is called the Noveske…the acronym, which we write on the barrel is "NMm0", and that stands for Noveske Match Mod 0. It's a chamber that gives you 100% reliability with as much retained accuracy as possible. You can have a more accurate chamber design, but you sacrifice battle-grade reliability. You can get stuck cases and other things with different chambers.

So, from the chamber, our barrel is hardness-tested again, just to make sure we didn't lose any hardness in the heat-treating process, and every barrel is serial-numbered at that point. So, now, all the information about the barrel, the heat-treat lot, the packing slip number, the bar number, all that information is now attached to the barrel with a 6-digit serial number, and it goes through the rest of the process with all the information attached to it by that number. And, we keep a log book with every end-user and every bit of information, just in case there was a problem with one customer's barrel, we can track down all the related barrels and pull 'em in in an efficient manner. And we've never had to do that, but I can if I need to. "
Great post. Facts are always nice to see around here.
 

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Pretty nice you ordered that one.
No doubt they make good barrels but there is absolutely nothing so special about their process compared to others.
Good examples are Krieger, Lilja, etc.. and Lothar walter LW50 being the hardest.

Lothar Walther

So, if considering the deep fluting that is a plus (many times custom job or option) this is probably one of the best deals with the
battle proven LW50 + 6P rifling form lothar walter...

ST- Lothar Walther 18 Medium Profile Fluted Stainless Steel- 5.56 [SB51803-FMP] - $425.00 : Spikes Tactical

La Rue, POF they also use LW50. POF gas tube will not melt in full auto because they do not have one! they have created a system
with a very smart cooling features and use Lothar or Rock Creek barrels both battle proven material.

From LaRue.. (please read)...

LaRue Tactical Stealth Sniper System. 16" barrell with a 10" handguard. Factory new, however I did take it out of the box to look at it. No BUIS included.

Description from Larue website: Just pull the pins on your old upper, swap it with the Stealth, and begin shooting one ragged hole. Answering the demands of today's precision AR-Shooter, we designed the Stealth Sniper System with ¾" 100-yard shot groups in mind. Exceeding our expectations, the Stealth has earned a great reputation for it's sub-MOA accuracy, with reports of consistent hits on 4" plates out to 400 yards with 77 grain Mk262 ammunition. Assembled using our CNC-machined Stealth Billet Upper (LT-007) as the backbone, complete Stealth Uppers are available in 12", 16", 18" & 20" barrel-lengths with the LT handguard length of your choice. NOTE: The 20" Stealth Upper is optimized for use with a rifle-length buffer system. Please let us know, in advance, if you are planning on using a carbine lower (and carbine buffer system) with our 20" Stealth. We want to make sure you will be setup properly. Complete Stealth Uppers come expertly-assembled and tested with Receiver, Free-float Handguard, Barrel, Low-Profile Gasblock and Tube, Mil-Contract M16 Bolt Carrier Group and Charging Handle. Components Overview Upper Receiver: The LaRue Stealth receiver is an improved-version of the currently fielded mil-spec flat-top receiver. Machined from billet 7075-T6, the Stealth is designed with more of material in critical areas to alleviate past issues of weakness and to stiffen the receiver, maximizing the weapons overall accuracy. Barrels: Unless you request bead-blasted stainless, our barrels arrive ION Bonded in black. Ion Bond coating is roughly 5-millionths of an inch thick and roughly 90 Rockwell in hardness (harder than hard-chrome). It won't chip, peel, corrode, and is heat-resistant to over 1200 degrees Fahrenheit. LaRue Stealth Barrels are Wylde-chambered in 5.56mm, 1-in-8 twist polygonal rifling in medium-weight contour using LW-50 Stainless. In the late 1980's, it was realized that there were erosion and short barrel-life problems with 416 Stainless in the calibers operating at 65K psi. 410 Stainless also had issues. LW-50 became the answer. LW-50 lacks sulphur, which in high quantity, created short throat-life in other Stainless Steels. LW-50 can also be heat-treated to a point that makes it near-optimal in all forms of rifle barrels. LW-50 has been proven for over 15 years, in military and civilian uses ranging from sniper, tactical, target, and other high-performance applications where long life and accuracy are critical. Free-Float Integrated Rail System: CNC-machined out of aluminum, LT handguards are available in 7.0", 9.0", 10.0", 11.0", 12.0", and 13.2" lengths. Our two-pin proprietary barrel nut system with its locking anti-slip plate, sets LaRue handguards apart from the competition. Once the rail is properly installed, there is no chance of movement whatsoever. Everything locks into place rock-solid. This is vital when utilizing lasers, optics and other hardware. The side and bottom rails are tucked closer to the barrel, keeping the profile narrower and more streamlined. Special cuts on each rail's end are designed to work with both mil-issue and standard rail covers. LaRue handguards also include a QD sling-swivel socket integrally-mounted at the base of each side for convenient mounting 2-point slings. Additionally, our Free-float Rail system provides an excellent heat-sinking feature that pulls throat-damaging heat away from the chamber area. Another heat-sinking benefit is the elimination of pressure-spikes, which some feel is the cause of a large part of pre-mature bolt failures. M16 Bolt-Carrier Group: Assembled to TexasSpecTM our Bolt Carrier Groups use the same mil-spec hardware used military-wide. Additionally, LT assembly enhancements greatly minimize bolt-related failures. Mil-spec gas-key contact areas are precision surface-ground flat for zero gas leakage and then max-staked to eliminate all chances of vibration-induced failures. Assembly and Testing: Every LT Stealth Sniper System is precision-assembled and as part of the QA procedure, goes through a final 10-round live-fire function test before being tube-packaged.

From Pac-Nor they have 2 qualities....
PAC-NOR Barreling, Inc. - Match Barrels

So, If you have someone that can cut a barrel (and cut it well) the pac-nor super-match with their 3p. is a great product.
I am sending a note to Black Hole to see what they say about their cutting process. I know sometimes they mess up but when they
do it right their Pac-Nor blanks are extremelly accurate. Not as durable as the Lothar or Rock Creek I am sure but neither the noveske.

Lets see what they say. I will keep you posted.
 

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Here's 2 facts:

Noveske makes fantastic barrels--I should know, I ran a 14.5 Afghan.
Meketrefe still types BS around here, when he gets proved wrong, he tries to type more BS to cover up the original BS.
 

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I actually just ordered one (16" recon profile in 5.56) and found that article while I was researching them. Nice build on the way...
I have another build on the way and an upgrade on an existing rifle--being friends with this Bpipe guy is expensive! Post up some pics when she is all built!
 

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Here's 2 facts:

Noveske makes fantastic barrels--I should know, I ran a 14.5 Afghan.
Meketrefe still types BS around here, when he gets proved wrong, he tries to type more BS to cover up the original BS.
Wasn't trying to prove anybody wrong just offering an article I found interesting and thought others might too. As far as Meketrefe is concerned, I've learned more from him about the AR platform than any other member. Not sure why a personal attack on another member was necessary? I see nothing wrong with anything he posted and actually learned some more stuff about the platform that I didn't know before. Isn't that what this forum is all about anyway?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I posted a funny pic, didn't expect it to be this educational
 

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I posted a funny pic, didn't expect it to be this educational
I know, it is crazy isn't it?
Anyway, they are very good barrels no doubt but since a lot of people really ask themselves that question and
not everyone might have the funds for very expensive barrels I proposed a more reasonable alternative
in the polygonal rifling department.

There is no doubt that the pac-nor barrel will exceed all expectations for a polygonal barrel AR, Bolt action or
whatever.
Here is listed as a provider of premium barrels..
Premium Barrels

Also if you want read this about this 'budget' project...
6BR Savage Pac-Nor "Silk Purse"
 

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Wasn't trying to prove anybody wrong just offering an article I found interesting and thought others might too. As far as Meketrefe is concerned, I've learned more from him about the AR platform than any other member. Not sure why a personal attack on another member was necessary? I see nothing wrong with anything he posted and actually learned some more stuff about the platform that I didn't know before. Isn't that what this forum is all about anyway?
cgrutt,
I emailed an engineer and designer that is close to the machines and very
familiar with the pac-nor process to make sure I double checked the facts
of what I proposed.

This is his reply on the pac-nor process:

Pac-Nor uses two basic types of steel alloys 4150 Chrome Molly and
416 T70C Stainless Steel Alloy.

They have a match and super match grades, w/ conventional
and polygonal rifling types in 3 to 8 groove variations depending
on caliber.

As far as steel alloys used by Pac-Nor are concerned, I don't see
any real problems with it, CM 4150 is about the strongest you
can find in a rifle barrel. The Carpenter 416T70 Stainless Steel is
a good quality USA sourced steel blank manufacturer, all ordnance
grade.

The biggest factors in the barrels quality and accuracy are:

The drilling of the barrels bore for best truness/straightness.
Grade of the alloy and just as Important the heat treating and
tempering of the barrel steel.
Stress relieving during the rifling of the bore and finally honing
and/or lapping of the bore before and after the rifling process.

I don't think the Noveske barrels are much Improved over the
Pac-Nor barrels, they are quite a bit more expensive though
and I can't see the the practical reason for the higher price.

I will not disclose his name in a post as he is working with these companies and
there might be a conflict.

This is another thing I can tell you:

Other budget alternative the BHW uses German sourced Walther steel
barrel blanks from what I understand using a 416R (Rifle Grade Ordnance Steel).
The stress relieving and the other process are pretty similar to what Noveske does.
They all run their own reamer designs and also had their duds at the beginning
but they seem to be getting better.

If you want to test any of these 4 uppers for the AR15 let me now I have them here in Rochester:
Noveske, another a pac-nor, a BHW and lothar walther from their custom shop. All polygonal barrels.
Then you can experience by yourself any differences.
I also have a pac-nor AR tcu that has been used in the research and development of a new exciting
caliber offspring of the 5.56 necked up to .264.
Also if you want to test 5R barrels I have krieger, rock and a couple of other makers.

The Noveskes are really good, so if someone doesn't have problems with paying the extra moola then go ahead.
But keep in mind there are other alternatives in polygonal for the average working man and they are very good ones.
My comment came like that but was not to aimed to diminish or ridiculize anyone or any products, but
come on, we have to do one comment once in a while of the big dollar moguls, just like we joke about
the Beretta tifosis.

But a barrel never shooting out like noveske claims it is simply not accurate. Anyone believing that they
are drinking their own bath water.

And regarding the stupid childish comments from folks what can we do? It is part of the dead waste
associated with being in forums. I know a few that cannot tell apart their faces from their own azzes.

If you want to call this person send me a PM. I will connect you to learn more about the barrels.
 

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Very interesting. I actually don't think the Noveske barrel was that much more than any other barrel, lol. I think it was $525 BUT that includes the gas block, that is pinned to the barrel, the gas tube and a bolt that is head spaced by Noveske to match the barrel. Apples to apples it would priced in the mid $300s for the barrel alone. Most other SS barrels I've seen are at least in the mid to high $200s, so were talking about $100 or so. I know percentage wise, its a huge difference, but still can't take your kid to a ball game and grab a couple of hot dogs for that today. Besides, its already ordered and on the Fed Ex truck. Supposed to be at my door step along with some other parts on Christmas Eve, lol.
 

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Very interesting. I actually don't think the Noveske barrel was that much more than any other barrel, lol. I think it was $525 BUT that includes the gas block, that is pinned to the barrel, the gas tube and a bolt that is head spaced by Noveske to match the barrel. Apples to apples it would priced in the mid $300s for the barrel alone. Most other SS barrels I've seen are at least in the mid to high $200s, so were talking about $100 or so. I know percentage wise, its a huge difference, but still can't take your kid to a ball game and grab a couple of hot dogs for that today. Besides, its already ordered and on the Fed Ex truck. Supposed to be at my door step along with some other parts on Christmas Eve, lol.
with the bolt + gas block? Wow.. that is a decent deal.

Lothar Walther custom shop was $450 for LW50 with the porting between mid and rifle length (Custom cut) and the matched bolt but w/o gas block. Add gas block and will be about the same.
 
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