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No Gun Signs - Need Legal Advice

8K views 40 replies 20 participants last post by  sportsman1263 
#1 ·
I've been searching for an answer to this problem and have not yet found one. If you know of a post or thread that addresses this, please advise. Thanks!

Recently, I noticed a "Firearms Prohibited" sign posted on the door to a business (movie theater) I was LEAVING. Now, I've searched this and other Forums for an answer to the question: Does a "No Gun" sign have the force of law in NY? and aside from reading a lot of opinion on the subject, I've not seen or heard of any actual legal answer to the question. Most people say if I'm asked to leave the premises I must leave or risk arrest for Trespass, which I was already aware of. However, what I really want to know is if I'm "made" or worse, involved in a defensive situation, is there an actual charge that can be brought against me simply for being in violation of the "sign"?

Like most people, I would rather violate a sign and be safe than be a sitting duck, but not at the cost of potentially losing my CCW altogether.

Thanks for your replies.
 
#6 ·
If I put up a sign on my front lawn saying No Liberals and one shows up at the front door does it carry the force of law? If I ask him/her to leave and they don't can the I call the police to have them charged with trespass? Pretty much the same with your movie theater, assuming of course there are no local ordinances (eg theater is within a "Gun Free Zone" etc.). None of us can give you legal advise here BTW, you should seek out an attorney if that's what you're after.
 
#9 ·
This one is kind of tricky because it does not involve gun laws directly, it would be some type of trespass or misrepresentation likely.

If you are asked to leave a business becuase you are carrying, it seems very unlikely to me that a LEO would arrest or a DA would prosecute some type of violation or misdemeanor. Any law that would apply would probably apply to other reasons the business asked you to leave as well. If you actually need to use your gun to defend yourself in a justified scenario, the complications of the fact you were carrying where there was a sign asking you not to is going to be the least of your problems.
 
#11 ·
From what I understand, if it's state run property or a gov't building then it is illegal to carry there. However, if it is private property (like a place of business) then it is policy and not law, so any decent lawyer should be able to get you out of any trouble that would put your permit at risk... but I'm no lawyer.
 
#14 ·
Thanks for the replies. It seems that most people believe that should the situation arise, it becomes more of a Trespass situation than an actual gun related or CCW situation. With that said, I assume I will always be given the option to leave the property and if not, that would be the basis for my defense should I encounter an overzealous officer. I suppose the next question is will I, in fact, be given the option to leave or does the sign being posted create an automatic Criminal Trespass situation?
 
#16 ·
Only Andy and Obummer (seem to think) they can create laws by decree. The rest of us have to get the legislator on board before our ideas become law. The owner can post whatever he wants on his property. Doesn't make it The Law. My question to you is why do you spend your hard earned money there if there is this much concern about your legal standing. Find someplace else without the sign...
 
#17 ·
With all due respect, the answer is not as simple as spending my money elsewhere. The fact is we have to live among, and patronize, many businesses that don't agree 100% with our personal choices. Sometimes we can avoid them out of principle, but other times we cannot or we simply find ourselves in a position we didn't foresee (i.e. noticing a sign upon exiting). Therefore, I would like to know what I'm up against legally before I decide to tiptoe around the county going out of my way to avoid them completely.
 
#18 ·
It was a question not a directive. I'm not sure what more I can add to this. I don't believe a private establishment posting a sign carry's any legal weight at all unless, as already stated, there are other local ordinances prohibiting you from carrying there. You've already stated that you would rather violate the sign than not carry. So the way I see it you have a few choices, you can carry and violate the store's policy. Abide by the policy and leave your gun at home or go somewhere else. If you use your gun in a defensive situation within NYS you are likely to lose your ability to carry regardless of if there is a sign or not. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
#19 ·
I'm not a lawyer, but this is the general consensus....

Barring local ordinances, the only thing you could be charged with is trespassing. We need to look at the trespassing laws though. In order to be trespassing in a place open to the public (which a movie theater is), you have to defy "a lawful order not to enter or remain, personally communicated to him by the owner of such premises or other authorized person." (emphasis mine)

In my opinion (and lots of others), a sign isn't personally communicated.

Here is a link to the trespassing laws of NY
Laws of New York
 
#20 ·
From a completely logical "letter of the law" viewpoint- I agree with most here that a private sign is not law and would at most be a trespass issue.

However- consider the practical side of things. Make sure you judge the risk based on your local police, DA, and especially Judges. You may not simply be asked to leave and given the opportunity. The sign could be interpreted as a prior notice that you have already violated and jump things straight to arrest. A DA who is anti-gun could view things poorly and pursue the case more vigorously than other ismple trespass situations. If convicted, a judge who is negative towards guns may impose a sentance on the upper end of what is allowed - based on the nature of the violation. It may be legal, doesnt mean it can't bias the system against you within those areas where discretion is allowed. Worse yet- the charge alone, even without conviction, may be enough for the issueing judge to have you CCW permit revoked.

Im not saying it is right, or moral, or that I agree with it- but it is a reality that needs to be considered. Assess your own risk based on your local area.
 
#21 ·
Thinking about having some of these business cards printed up just for ****s and giggles...

http://www.ctrguns.com/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2011/08/no_guns_no_money.pdf

That said, see "Do No Gun" signs have force of law section here http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf. According to this site, the question remains unanswered and they RECOMMEND treating No gun sign laws in NYS as having the force of law (I disagree with this recommendation completely, but it is what it is)... It should also be noted the section on magazine limits is outdated.
 
#22 ·
First of all, do NOT seek legal advice on the Internet. Ask a lawyer!

Now, I did some research on this issue a while ago.

First of all, NYS Penal Law as to guns and licenses is PREEMPTIVE. Meaning, no local laws can regulate gun permits, only the State (and NYC, which is ceded that right in the PL).

There is NOTHING in the Penal Law prohibiting LICENSED carry in State or other Government buildings (of course, the Feds have their own laws). SCHOOLS are prohibited, nothing else is named in the PL.

In a public place, such as a movie theater, you are presumed to have LICENSE to be on the premises. When you are asked to leave, that presumptive license is revoked, and failure to leave (or coming back) can be prosecutes as trespass.

Keep in mind, in some other States a sign barring firearms DOES have the force of law, just not in NYS as far as I know.

So the answer is, I AM NOT A LAWYER. For legal advice ask a lawyer.

My opinion, based on what I have learned simply by reading the laws and cases, is that the MOST that can happen if you are "caught" is you will be asked to leave. There is no PL charge that I can find for "being on the premises with a legally licensed gun under PL 400". And from the cases I have read, no local governments can make any laws regulating licensed handguns. There was a case a few years ago where Nassau County lost in Court after passing a law that prohibited "colored" guns, which of course would be on a persons license. As I recall the decision, the STATE retains all powers to regulate licensed handguns, no other laws "count".

If you try to enter a Court House with a licensed gun, the gun will be either vouchered for you, or you will be asked to leave if there are no local facilities. You will NOT be arrested, unless of course you attempt to enter anyway. Then the simple trespass probably turns into resisting, or even Assault Second degree, so probably a bad idea. However, the point is that it is NOT illegal to approach the front door with a licensed handgun, you just won't be allowed to carry it inside.

So again, this is NOT legal advice, merely my opinion. In my opinion, the no guns signs at malls and other businesses have no force of law.

Of course, if you carry properly concealed this will never be an issue. If you use the weapon, the sign is going to be the very least of your problems!
 
#23 ·
First of all, NYS Penal Law as to guns and licenses is PREEMPTIVE. Meaning, no local laws can regulate gun permits, only the State (and NYC, which is ceded that right in the PL).
Tell that to Monroe County. They limit where you can carry. Carry in county parks is prohibited. SCOPE was going to sue the county over this, but some other law took priority... FUAC!
 
#29 · (Edited)
As noted above, seek a lawyer for legal advice. This is even worse: I took a NYS pistol permit class recently to "refresh". This question came up and the answer was: as long as you obey Federal and NYS restrictions - which do not give private property signs the force of law - you'd only be looking at trespass if you refused to leave.

OT but related

As others have noted, this varies by state (in OH, for example, you are guilty of trespass if you "knowingly violate a posted prohibition ... unless the posted land or premises was a parking lot/facility ..." So, trespass if you "knowingly" ignore the sign (but not otherwise) unless it is a parking lot? Nothing but obscure, byzantine laws to be aware of both in and outside of the state. Handgunlaws.us (http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/newyork.pdf) cites NY roadside rest stops as off limits per 17-CRR-NY 156.12.

I sure wish we were in a better place working to remove the last of these arcane booby traps from gun laws rather than the even sorrier state we're in now. Vote in November.

ETA: found the NY rest area law in 17 CRR IV C 156.12:

Go to above "unofficial" link, drill into "Title 17 Department of Transportation", then "Chapter IV Highways", then "Subchapter C Highway Use and Maintenance", then "Part 156 Use of Rest and Parking Areas and Scenic Overlooks", and finally "156.12 Use of Firearms and Weapons".

"156.12 Firearms and weapons.

(a) At no time shall drawn bows, loaded firearms, loaded air guns, spring guns or other such weapons be permitted in any rest or parking area or scenic overlook, nor shall any bow, firearm, air gun, spring gun or other weapon be discharged for any reason in any rest or parking area or scenic overlook.

(b) This provision shall not apply to peace officers, as defined in section 154 of the Code of Criminal Procedure, or to State police officers, conservation officers or special game protectors.

17 CRR-NY 156.12
Current through August 31, 2014"

So I guess posted or not, no loaded firearms, let alone discharge for self defense, in rest or parking areas or senic overlooks that are under jurisdiction of NYSDOT??? Of course if you have a permit, it isn't a firearm, but could qualify as "or other weapon" ...... these laws are a friggin mess.

ETA2: After considering the above, choice is clear. Carry on permit, keep it concealed, use it if justified, if you survive to worry about byzantine laws and going broke defending the fact that you are still living, it was a good day.
 
#35 ·
The CRR is all regulations not laws. The vehicle and traffic law alllws for creation of regulations, but breaking a regulation is (I believe) only a violation. As for the issue of CPL vs CCP, I doubt it 'invalidates' the entire regulation, since the intended meaning is clear and unless you are a police officer it is moot.
 
#37 ·
cgrutt, I thought I updated that info when the court ruled and they changed things to 10 rds. Thank you for pointing that out. That will be updated later this evening. As for the No Gun Signs. I believe they don't have the force of law in NY but I am not an attorney. I need something from someone in authority to address this like the OP was asking. Thanks again and
 
#41 ·
Thank you for all the replies. All very helpful. I will have to weigh my options very carefully but its safe to say that should I choose to carry at one of those businesses, I will surely leave if asked to avoid even a citation for trespass, which it appears would be the only charge that could be brought.

Thanks again!
 
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