New York Firearms Forum banner

1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Son (20) goes on my land hunting coyote last Saturday. My posted land. Takes his AR-15 out loads a magazine. County deputy pulls on my land lights flashing and asks for ID. Son stands gun on ground leaning against tailgate shows ID. Deputy hands misdemeanor violation for carrying loaded weapon in vehicle.

If he was driving with a loaded weapon I would shoot him. If he was on public land I would kick his butt for stupidity. On my land, I want to fight and fight vigorously.

Recommendations on a lawyer that doesn't run scared?

Thanks.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
If he wasn't hunting then I am sure he could most likely get off. Sorry I cant recommend a lawyer. Sounds to me though that he is either going to have to make a deal or find something the officer did that was wrong or why he shouldn't have came on your property in the first place. I assume there was a complaint made and if thats the case then he would be allowed to come on your property.

Good Luck.
 

·
I kill deer... and I like it
Joined
·
1,336 Posts
You can go out and shoot a coyote right now if you want, provided it's damaging your property. Here's the guidelines: Remove or "Take" Nuisance Animals Legally - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

"Damaging Animal - A wild animal that damages property, for example, digs up your yard, eats your landscape plants or vegetable garden, kills or threatens your livestock or pets, fouls your lawn, eats the fish in your pond, damages your home, etc."

Just in case that aspect of the situation gets brought up with the court.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
...

"Damaging Animal - A wild animal that damages property, for example, digs up your yard, eats your landscape plants or vegetable garden, kills or threatens your livestock or pets, fouls your lawn, eats the fish in your pond, damages your home, etc."

Just in case that aspect of the situation gets brought up with the court.
Reading those DEC laws, assuming I get the necessary permit, it seems that I would be legally permitted to take out the numerous Canada Geese who hang out and sh*t all over my yard, "fouling my lawn", (which is ~2 acres), but I'm guessing there are strings attached, or the permits are difficult to obtain. Has anyone here applied and received such a permit, and if so, what reasons were given?

I have caught deer in my gardens and have observed damage to ornamental trees (from deer) on my property on several occasions. You may think that damaging ornamental trees is no big deal, but I spent a lot of time planting, fertilizing, and watering those sob's, so when I see damage to them, I'm likely bound to have a bad day. I'd love to get some venison in the freezer early, so may have to check into a DEC Deer Damage permit...

Coyotes are an exception as they can be taken without a permit if they are causing property damage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Maybe I am out to lunch here but you said he got a ticket for a loaded weapon?
Could it have been for the loaded mag?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
...

Son stands gun on ground leaning against tailgate
shows ID. Deputy hands misdemeanor violation for carrying loaded weapon in vehicle.

...
^ This is a legit violation of law. You can't lean a loaded firearm against a vehicle, and it's really unfortunate he did so in front of the Deputy.

If you lean a loaded long gun (or handgun) on a vehicle, it's considered a loaded firearm in a vehicle by definition of law. I remember the instructors in my hunter's safety course awhile back specifically mentioning this as a violation of law, and that individuals had been arrested/issued citations in the past for exactly this type of incident.

It doesn't matter if you're on private property. You lean a loaded gun on a vehicle, an officer has a reason to arrest and/or issue a citation/violation. It's a lame technicality, but I believe DEC laws specifically state that leaning a loaded firearm on a vehicle is treated no differently than driving around with a loaded firearm inside the vehicle.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
The law itself says you cant have a loaded rifle or shotgun in OR on a motor vehicle.


2. No firearm or crossbow except a pistol or revolver shall be carried or possessed in or on a motor vehicle unless it is unloaded, for a firearm in both the chamber and the magazine
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,557 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
Yep, that's it usmcvet. Whether it's in or ON a motor vehicle doesn't matter. Never lean or put a loaded long gun anywhere near a vehicle. There has been a lot of debate about "loaded in a magazine" as there have been numerous NYF members who have stated they load up mags before driving to the range. Best to leave them completely unloaded so that you're not in danger of being charged for "loaded magazine". Save yourself the Court and Lawyer fees.

As for a Lawyer, I would recommend a criminal defense lawyer. Hopefully the Court can offer up a reduced plea based on the circumstances (if the OP's son's demeanor was decent toward the officer, he might have a good chance of having the matter reduced or dismissed).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
387 Posts
Reading those DEC laws, assuming I get the necessary permit, it seems that I would be legally permitted to take out the numerous Canada Geese who hang out and sh*t all over my yard, "fouling my lawn", (which is ~2 acres), but I'm guessing there are strings attached, or the permits are difficult to obtain. Has anyone here applied and received such a permit, and if so, what reasons were given?

I have caught deer in my gardens and have observed damage to ornamental trees (from deer) on my property on several occasions. You may think that damaging ornamental trees is no big deal, but I spent a lot of time planting, fertilizing, and watering those sob's, so when I see damage to them, I'm likely bound to have a bad day. I'd love to get some venison in the freezer early, so may have to check into a DEC Deer Damage permit...

Coyotes are an exception as they can be taken without a permit if they are causing property damage.
See Remove or "Take" Nuisance Animals Legally - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

I've known a few folks that obtained permits for nuisance geese. Typically it's for hazing, but occasionally they get depredation permits too. Just give your local DEC Wildlife folks a call.
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
Yes a criminal defense lawyer is the one you want. The case. People V Russo stated the law in question is a Penal law even though its found in Environmental law.

But if you really want to fight this law you could also go after the fact there is no exception for law enforcement. So since police keep rifles and shotguns (I admit not all) in their vehicles with rounds in the magazine or shotgun tube they are also in violation. Not saying it will get your son off but it could start a big Sh!t storm for them which may be what you also want.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I am certain I haven't gotten the whole truth here from either of the two parties involved (son or deputy). One says he is hunting coyotes and the other says they were investigating reports of drinking in area. Haven't gotten grey hair by putting head in sand.

BS or not still a real charge so criminal lawyer yes - but want one that isn't afraid of G-U-N-S. Things like no exception for law enforcement raising ****storm suits me fine. Coming on my property investigating 'drinking' and tagging someone for a weapon 'in a vehicle' seems like Illegal Search to me. 4th Amendment here. Or 'Gun is on Ground'.

So lawyer - but any names?
 

·
I wish I were an Oscar Meyer Weiner
Joined
·
6,795 Posts
Bottom line IMO, if the Cop had a legal reason to be on your property your son is screwed. You could try and fight it that since the police dont get arrested for having loaded rifles and shotguns in their vehicles they are selective enforcing the law. That defense is the hardest to prove and rarely wins. If the cop had a legal right to be there then your son placing the loaded rifle down leaning against car is plain view and legal. I assume the officer checked personally to ensure the rifle was in fact loaded?

You could try to argue the gun was on the ground and against the vehicle and the law does not forbid that but there is probably case law to the contrary of that.

You could argue the purpose of the law broken is to prevent people from hunting from their vehicles which your son was not but again I dont think that would work.

I love a good fight but atleast see what kind of deal the prosecutor is willing to make.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
Yes a criminal defense lawyer is the one you want. The case. People V Russo stated the law in question is a Penal law even though its found in Environmental law.

But if you really want to fight this law you could also go after the fact there is no exception for law enforcement. So since police keep rifles and shotguns (I admit not all) in their vehicles with rounds in the magazine or shotgun tube they are also in violation. Not saying it will get your son off but it could start a big Sh!t storm for them which may be what you also want.
Are you certain there is no exception written for Law enforcement (even on a Federal level)? I don't know off-hand. You're right though, you could fight the law at large, but to do so would require heavy financial and time investment. The important matter at hand is to get the OP's son's charge dismissed or reduced, and if his demeanor toward the officer was decent, I can't see why a judge would stand behind the "rifle ON vehicle" law. It's a frivolous law, especially considering the circumstances. The OP's son was likely trying to be respectful, setting his rifle down before reaching for his ID, and didn't want to just drop his rifle on the ground. Setting a rifle against a vehicle is not the smartest move for a number of safety reasons, but at that time and under the circumstances, it may have seemed to be the best option from the son's perspective while being detained by a Deputy.

If the son's demeanor was rude or condescending toward the Deputy, he was probably licking his chops as soon as he saw that rifle leaned against a vehicle. I would think, if the son was decent toward the Deputy, that the Deputy would have informed the son not to lean his rifle on a vehicle. It's almost as if you're dealing with self-incrimination otherwise.

Regarding a criminal defense attorney, just flat out ask the attorney his stance on 2A and guns in general before choosing. Or, ask for recommendations within your local area.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,864 Posts
^ This is a legit violation of law. You can't lean a loaded firearm against a vehicle, and it's really unfortunate he did so in front of the Deputy.

If you lean a loaded long gun (or handgun) on a vehicle, it's considered a loaded firearm in a vehicle by definition of law. I remember the instructors in my hunter's safety course awhile back specifically mentioning this as a violation of law, and that individuals had been arrested/issued citations in the past for exactly this type of incident.

It doesn't matter if you're on private property. You lean a loaded gun on a vehicle, an officer has a reason to arrest and/or issue a citation/violation. It's a lame technicality, but I believe DEC laws specifically state that leaning a loaded firearm on a vehicle is treated no differently than driving around with a loaded firearm inside the vehicle.
You gotta be shattin' me!! but I see by the following post that you are not. What a total crock, and my most immediate thought is that we were paying the salary of the bunghole who dreamed that up. Sucks, but it's what makes this state GREAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,952 Posts
You gotta be shattin' me!! but I see by the following post that you are not. What a total crock, and my most immediate thought is that we were paying the salary of the bunghole who dreamed that up. Sucks, but it's what makes this state GREAAAAAAAAAAAAAT!!!
No question it's a frivolous law. I certainly don't agree that a loaded shotgun or rifle ON your vehicle is a criminal offense, let alone IN your vechicle; but yes, that's NYS for you. Frivolous laws that are designed to ruin the lives of otherwise law-abiding citizens. The Nanny State is always looking over your shoulder to make sure the little children in the world are not in harms way, because if they are, you're a criminal and you will be arrested.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top