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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Ok, I want to start off by saying that I have nothing against poly frames and know that many of them are very reliable and accurate. I seem to be drawn towards metal framed handguns more than poly frames. They seem to have more character and look "better" to me. Now that that's out of the way, onto my dilemma.

My goal is to have a gun for the range with the possibility to carry in the near future when I get my ccw permit approved. I would like a 9mm as ammo is cheaper and I can carry more rounds in the firearm and/or my person. This will be my "first" handgun even though I have used my father's Beretta 92f for years and am very accurate with it. I've shot an M&P .40 once before and was not very good but I was told I may have had the target a bit too far out, especially for a beginner.

I originally fell in love with a black Sig P229 Elite with the rosewood handle but it seems to be a bit too large to carry. As I was going from shop to shop looking at handguns, I came across the Sig 1911 Nightmare and fell in love with that thing. Even though it was a .45, it felt perfect in my hands. However, the more gun folks I talk to, the more they tell me not to get a 1911 as a "main" or "first" handgun. Some have even sent me videos of Rob Pincus challenging anyone to take his course and complete it with a 1911 and he will cover all expenses. The Nightmare, due to being a single stack, seemed like it would be easier to carry than the Elite. However, the Elite offers the option to swap out barrels between .357, .40 and 9mm so I could buy the .40 and later swap out to a 9mm barrel if I plan on shooting a lot of rounds.

A forum member on another site posted pics of his H&K P30 and it looked AMAZING but again, many people tell me to stay away from H&K due to the cost of the firearm and parts.

So, after 3 weeks of reading articles, forums and reviews I'm still at square one. Can any of you suggest some steel framed firearms in 9mm?
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Also, if any of you would be willing to meet me at a local range to let me look at any of your guns, I will cover the cost of the range time and ammo. It's tough to buy a $500-$900 gun based on how it looks in a glass case. I'd appreciate the opportunity to look at some that the local shops don't carry..

For the record, since being able to comfortably carry depends on your build, I'm 5'7" and about 210 lbs stocky/muscular build.
My work attire is corporate casual which consists of a button down shirt tucked into black slacks.
 

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Ok, I want to start off by saying that I have nothing against poly frames and know that many of them are very reliable and accurate. I seem to be drawn towards metal framed handguns more than poly frames. They seem to have more character and look "better" to me. Now that that's out of the way, onto my dilemma.

My goal is to have a gun for the range with the possibility to carry in the near future when I get my ccw permit approved. I would like a 9mm as ammo is cheaper and I can carry more rounds in the firearm and/or my person. This will be my "first" handgun even though I have used my father's Beretta 92f for years and am very accurate with it. I've shot an M&P .40 once before and was not very good but I was told I may have had the target a bit too far out, especially for a beginner.

I originally fell in love with a black Sig P229 Elite with the rosewood handle but it seems to be a bit too large to carry. As I was going from shop to shop looking at handguns, I came across the Sig 1911 Nightmare and fell in love with that thing. Even though it was a .45, it felt perfect in my hands. However, the more gun folks I talk to, the more they tell me not to get a 1911 as a "main" or "first" handgun. Some have even sent me videos of Rob Pincus challenging anyone to take his course and complete it with a 1911 and he will cover all expenses. The Nightmare, due to being a single stack, seemed like it would be easier to carry than the Elite. However, the Elite offers the option to swap out barrels between .357, .40 and 9mm so I could buy the .40 and later swap out to a 9mm barrel if I plan on shooting a lot of rounds.

A forum member on another site posted pics of his H&K P30 and it looked AMAZING but again, many people tell me to stay away from H&K due to the cost of the firearm and parts.

So, after 3 weeks of reading articles, forums and reviews I'm still at square one. Can any of you suggest some steel framed firearms in 9mm?
I share your admiration of metal-framed guns, but all of mine are polymer. They are simply lighter, usually more ergonomic, and lower maintenance. I am not trying to sell you on polymer, but make sure you at least consider it. Did you handle any polymer guns when going to stores at least?

H&Ks are polymer-framed guns (at least the current production ones like the P30 you mentioned). The P30 has probably the most customizable and ergonomic grip on any gun today, but it is polymer framed.

Additionally, the Sigs you mentioned are aluminum-framed, not steel. I don't know if you meant steel when you said it, or just any kind of metal, but those Sigs are not steel-framed.

All that said, I get from your post that you want an all-around gun, for range use, carry, and learning. Any time someone asks for a suggestion for a first gun, I think .22, because that is the best way to learn the basics. Many manufacturers produce .22s that are identical to centerfire pistols they produce. One example is Sig, another is the S&W M&P line. Some also sell a .22 conversion kit (again, Sig has these for some of their models).

If you do go with a centerfire model, I can't stress enough that it should be a 9mm. Bigger than that, and you have to deal with additional recoil, which is not productive when trying to learn the fundamentals. 9mm is also the least expensive of the common centerfire cartridges. You could do just fine only shooting 9mm for all purposes, but thats another conversation.

Now on to the good part. For an all-metal, all around gun, I think you did well with the idea for the Sig P229. Pre-bans are available which is another bonus in New York. It may be a challenge to carry, but lots of people do. A smaller but just as nice choice would be the Sig P239. I consider that to be a good size for carry, but I think it is still big enough to shoot well. Sig has quite a few models to choose from; I'm sure one of them is the right combination for you. I would echo the advice not to start with a 1911, and I personally wouldn't want to carry a 1911 until I had shot it a LOT without any problems, but that is my opinion and I may be in the minority. I have also heard the stories from trainers that 1911s seldom make it through a course without a malfunction. One trainer I saw on YouTube said he keeps some Glock 21s on hand for students who bring 1911s and get tired of clearing the malfunctions.

I've not had any experience with CZs, but I see them thrown in with the likes of HK and Sig online, so they have a good reputation, and they are also metal-framed guns. Other than those, most of the primary manufacturers have gone to polymer for the reasons I listed above (and also because its cheaper to produce, but those savings are rarely passed along to us :) The Sig SP2022 is an example where it is passed along).

In a way, limiting it to metal makes recommending guns pretty easy, because there just aren't that many of them anymore. Normally I would advise you to further narrow the playing field by deciding on things like double stack or single stack, trigger variant (DA/SA, SAO, Striker-fired constant action, etc). But you are pretty much going to end up with a DA/SA like a Sig, CZ, or Beretta, or a 1911. You are narrowing out 85% of the market by ignoring polymer. That's fine, but just make sure you have good justification for filtering out such a large part of the market before you make your decision. I too find them to have more character and to look better, but like I said, I went with polymer guns.

Oh, and one more thing. If you do go with something polymer, I would give you the opposite advice regarding Heckler & Koch. I have found them to be the best choices for myself. They are expensive, but when you consider how long you will own it and how much ammo you will put through it, the cost of the gun is fairly irrelevant to the discussion. You will put many times that cost through it in ammo alone. I love my HKs and I owned a fair number of brands on my journey of buying and selling to try stuff before I finally found HK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
That is illegal in NY when it comes to handguns. You're asking people to break the law. I do not know if you knew about this law but in NY, you have to have whatever pistol you are firing on your permit in order to shoot it from a private individual. So for me to let you shoot any of my handguns legally, you would have to have the handguns I let you shoot added to your permit.

Now back to steel guns. You already have experience with the Berretta so you can cross that one off. How about CZ pistols? Very well made handguns from what I read. You may want to look into them as well.

James
I thought as long as a person had a valid pistol permit they could handle a handgun even if it's not on their permit, just not transport or carry it. I'll have to look into it when I get out of work. Thanks for the heads up.
 

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I thought as long as a person had a valid pistol permit they could handle a handgun even if it's not on their permit, just not transport or carry it. I'll have to look into it when I get out of work. Thanks for the heads up.
No unless you are an FFL like you going to your dealer and looking at handguns and you hold it which is legal. Also I do believe certified range instructors can let you fire the gun but only at a range. That is all I really know about it. I believe if you look in the permit section you will find a more detailed answer.

James
 

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I'm sure someone can more definitively answer shooting someone else's pistol (when both have NY pistol permits). I believe that is 100% legal. If you have a permit you can shoot someone else's pistol at a range, but cannot carry or transport it (to the best of my knowledge). If shooting someone else's pistol was illegal, shooting ranges would not be permitted to "rent" handguns to anyone.

If a friend or relative wants to shoot any of my pistols (and does not have a NY pistol permit), PA is where we do the shooting. ;)
 

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my favorite 9mm in my stable is my kahr k9. it's a stainless single stack that comes standard with hogue rubber grips. fits perfectly in my hand without the pinkie curling under the bottom of the mag, but is highly concealable due to its slim profile. i'm more accurate with that than with my beretta m9a1, which is odd since i'm usually better with larger pistols. i see them used for $500-600 at local stores like collector rifle in hopewell and thruway market sporting goods in walden (where i got mine). where do you typically shoot?
 

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I too believe that it is legal to shoot other's pistols as long as you both have permits and are present. I thought this question was posed not to long ago and it was quoted somewhere that you could. Need to find that thread...
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
My parents own 80+ acres upstate not far from Cobleskill so I do quite a bit of shooting/hunting up there. The only ranges I've gone to are Shooter's in CT and most recently Blue Trail out in Wallingford, CT. On the way home I spent an hour or two at Hoffman's gun store. Holy crap that place is awesome and even has an indoor range right there in the store.

I'm not far from Blue Mountain in Peekskill and Wooster Mountain in Danbury. I regularly go trap shooting at Whortlekill Rod & Gun Club in Hopewell Junction. Putnam Fish & Game is nearby but I've never been there either.
 

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You can look at the Kahr MK9 it is a sleek looking little pistol. I would have bought it but the weight was an issue for me. I prefer the lighter PM9. The heavier gun will have less felt recoil for you so it is a good place to start.

Also Master Arms LLC in Sloatsburg has a few used S&W as well as other all metal pistols if you wanted to go and fondle them. Jim is a great guy and will treat you right. Just bought two M&P's from him one for myself and another for a friend.

Good luck and be safe.

Rob
 

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Like a previous responder said. Do allow yourself to at least feel, try or consider a polymer framed pistol. Remember it is only the frame that is polymer. I will never give up my Walther P99AS in 9mm. Love that weapon!
Having said that I do lust for one other pistol. All metal. I don't know how money fits into your equation but a Dan Wesson Guardian in 9mm made right here in NY is an awfully nice weapon. Commander size with bobbed grip would be CC capable. My lusting continues.
 

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considering one of the highly regarded trainers on this site has this listed for their course, i doubt it's illegal.
***If a pistol is not available one may be rented in 9mm for $35/course
upon verification of valid N.Y.S. Pistol Permit.
 

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No unless you are an FFL like you going to your dealer and looking at handguns and you hold it which is legal. Also I do believe certified range instructors can let you fire the gun but only at a range. That is all I really know about it. I believe if you look in the permit section you will find a more detailed answer.

James
considering one of the highly regarded trainers on this site has this listed for their course, i doubt it's illegal.
***If a pistol is not available one may be rented in 9mm for $35/course
upon verification of valid N.Y.S. Pistol Permit.
James:D
 

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This is from S265.20 Paragraph 7. You can shoot someone else's pistol at a range that meets the requirements if you are licensed and the owner of the pistol is present.

" 7-a. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person duly licensed to possess a pistol or
revolver pursuant to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter of a
pistol or revolver duly so licensed to another person who is present at
the time."
 
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