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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Did you ever wonder how a specific feature on a firearm made it to the production line? For example that anoying gap in between the original AR-15 trigger guard and the pistol grip. It has gone through decades w/o being properly addressed until lately other than electrical tape and other creative solutions. I do believe the veterans fighting in Vietnam had the same type of hands and nr. of fingers as we do have today.

Or what about a tactic that was implemented and used that was a total disaster? For example those infantry columns in the 1800's wars marching forward in prefect formation and walking toward each other and simply waiting to be shot but a random bullet. What were they thinking?

My intention with this thread is not to create an opportunity for someone to simply complain, criticize or demote a caliber or firearm that someone does not like but rather an opportunity for folks to provide feedback on clearly erroneous design concepts, disaster tactics and any other firearm related characteristics that make no sense.
This is not a place to criticize the 9mm pistols if we like the 45. or to dismiss the AR-15's if we are AK hard-die enthusiasts but to really propose and objectively discuss about features and tactics that never worked and why so others can learn from those and do it within the context and limitations of the specific circumstances and period in history. Stick to facts. I would not criticize lever action rifles for the simple fact they are lever action and I do not like them. That is not what we are going after here.

What feature, firearm design or tactic you consider a no sense thing?
 

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The hammer on the browning hi-power, before they had the commander hammer. It would smash the web of many peoples' thumb between the hammer and the beavertail. Still current production on some models. I get why you want it shaped like that, for maximum area to put your thumb... but the consequences outweigh that when you're bleeding all over.
 

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Assuming you mean to leave politically mandated constraints (ie, compensator good (sometimes) flash suppressor bad (most times); 10 rounds good 30 rounds bad, unless manufactured before 9-94) out of the discussion? Because these make no sense to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
darkvibe That is a nice one! I didn't know that one.
Here is another one about tactics. Investigators have found many LEOs that have been shot (Sometimes fatally) while they were running for cover and then only to find out after the fact that they had a full magazine inside the pistol. A lot of training tactics are changing to teach LEOs how to move and shoot at the same time specially while looking for cover. That training tactics of punting a few holes in a cardboard stationary target is totally obsolete. We know LEOs do not train enough to be safe and when the budgets cuts come the first thing is to cut on police, fire, first responders, teachers, the most basic and important positions in the communities.Who is going to take you out of a burning building or respond to a distress call from a robbery? The parasites in Albany or Washington? I don't think so.
 

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Or what about a tactic that was implemented and used that was a total disaster? For example those infantry columns in the 1800's wars marching forward in prefect formation and walking toward each other and simply waiting to be shot but a random bullet. What were they thinking?
The massed fire "Napoleonic" tactics dating through the 18th and 19th centuries were effective for their time. Smooth bore muskets (Especially flintlock, d/t flinching from the "flash in the pan" were horribly inaccurate. Precision fire was possible but it took alot of training, and the average soldier was not trained to that level. Volume of fire meant more then accuracy of fire. The goal was to break the will of the opposition. It was actually the carnage of the American Civil War and Rifled muskets and better projectiles that turned these formations into deathtraps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Good point. I understand the thinking at the time and the limitations of the smooth bore and round bullets but at the same time the Natives were laughing at these tactics. I can see the courage and mental discipline (and terror) but not so much any efficiency model in such formations.
It is like the siege by fortification tactics. Like General Patton once said, and I quote: Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.
 

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gap in between the original AR-15 trigger guard and the pistol grip. It has gone through decades w/o being properly addressed until lately other than electrical tape and other creative solutions. I do believe the veterans fighting in Vietnam had the same type of hands and nr. of fingers as we do have today.


But what they didn't have was that hump that goes between the second and ring finger on the pistol grip forcing thier grip higher up into the gapped area.
That didn't come about 'til the A2.

For myself, for decades I'd never heard of or experienced the gap being a 'problem', up until more recently where there began to be a plethora of (1) civilian users, (2) different modern styles/classes/instructors/uberoperator training stuff that suggest or even demand different hand positions, and (c) actual different aftermarket grips with different shapes that force different hand position.

The gap was there initially and through the military stuff to allow for winterization, so it did/does have a deliberate purpose.
As in dropping the whole guard so the weapon can be fired with mittens. Not even aftermarket big loop guards will allow that.

Unless there's a specific snow tactics training course that shows effective ways of using mittens or other really heavy cold weather hand covering gear, the gap needs to remain. Which is likely why it does still remain on gov't rifles, becuase theys till issue big dumb mittens, trigger mittens and uber fat fingered gloves for cold weather ops.

I would hazard that the crabbing about it is a result of poorly finished edges on the lower receiver, not the gap itself.
Knock the sharp edges off or get a higher quality lower that has it done already and it becomes a non~issue.

Now the thumb chopper related to the M1 and stuffing a clip in or releasing the bolt after the clip is ejected is a whole 'nother matter.
 

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ok so I choose the BAT BOMB. watched it on the history channel then looked it up. the dumbest thing I ever head of. if a lesson could be learned here this is it. Bat bomb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

as for guns: the ruger 10/22 original mag release. its flush with the gun and for people with large hands a PITA to use. now they have a extended release for it that comes OE. I know its not a big deal but really stupid design. while on that gun, the OEM bolt handle, I swear again its not made for people with large hands... these are not just my thoughts, many people with larger hands tend to have issues with them. for the blot handle it tends to slip out of my fingers, and the mag release use to make me use two hands to eject it. one to push it up and one to pry the mag from between my other parts of my hand. Just seems stupid that they designed the gun for people with... wait... or do you think it might have designed for kids? IDK now im thinking maybe it wasnt designed for adults to begin with? it does seem pretty small...

the mossburg 500: one stupid thing with that... it dont fire dinosaurs. its a shame really. (sorry had to get it in somewhere :) )
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Good points everyone.

I think the AR-15 gap was never a huge problem but a little annoyance for many but, anyway, I can appreciate the new one piece enlarged trigger guards, not just because of that enhancement alone but because of all the other improvements in the billets themselves :). Anyway it is something that can be handled but here I am not going to try to resolve any issues just point them out. We know those, where issues are found all have a solution or the some manufactures, like rugger with the magazine release, finally did something about it.

This is another one that I don't like at all. The Glock Gen1 mag release button ... it seems also designed for baby hands. Why do they made the thing so small and almost flushed. Hold on attacker, I need to reload butt his dumb button!!
Finally they did something about it and also thanks to the aftermarket manufactures the people with large fingers would have an option.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Another one is the AK safety/dust cover lever. It is a beautiful piece of design for function and simplicity but when it comes to ergonomics just a nice little extra metal on the latch easier to reach with the index finger even for folks with short fingers. Also maybe an slightly stamped channel for the piece to ride on with the stamped pin hole positions to avoid the noisy slap when the safety is removed.

Another one that would be more friendly, specially for beginners is if all scopes as a standard feature would have the elevation knob on the side of the scope (both sides to be ambidextrous) and the windage on the top. One could visualize up or down corrections the same way a pilot rotates the controls on an airplane. Forward rotation is down, back rotation is up, left rotation is left and right is right. To adjust the parallax one could pull either elevation button to set the proper optics correction. I would imagine all it would take is a very small set of gears on the turrets to make it happen.
 

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On the subject of the AK, I have never enjoyed the no bolt hold-open after the last shot. Seems like it could and should be there.
 

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i'm gonna go with the (lack of) ergonomics on the remington 870's controls. i have an 870 express with top-folding stock that i got for dirt cheap as a beater gun and a mossy 590a1 that is set up as my primary home defense gun with all the bells and whistles (and m7 bayonet). the controls of the 870 make little to no sense to me as compared to those on the mossberg. i much prefer its tang safety (as opposed to the rem's behind-the-trigger cross-bolt safety) since i can operate it with my thumb without removing my shooting finger from its ready position parallel the trigger guard. also, and more drastically inconvenient, the slide release on the 870 is positioned in front of the trigger guard as opposed to behind it on the 590, which can even be operated with the middle finger if one does not want to move the pointer from its spot next to the trigger. it's impossible for me to reach that lever without moving my hand forward and i doubt i'm the only one who's noticed this issue. i know that they're both industry standards as far as shotguns are concerned, but it's hard for me to fathom why anyone would opt for anything other than a 500/590 aside from the fact that there may be very slightly more accessories for the 870 series, though even that is questionable anymore.
 

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I just started watching that and right off the bat I agree. No manual safeties on guns. Only unobtrusive ones. Glock still has that safe action trigger, and while I don't like it specifically, it is not a big point at all because it is still just pulling the trigger. My Walther P99 has it right (in my view) with that. No double trigger, no manual safety, no magazine safety, but 3 (or 4) internal ones that protect against drops and such.
 
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