[Weylund]

Hey all - first post. First AR as well. I've purchased a pinned Spike's lower and charging handle, a Bravo Company BCG, and now I'm hunting for a compliant upper to go with them. The options I've liked so far:

1) Bravo Company - a mid-length 14.5" upper with a pinned/welded FSC 556 is a great deal at $550. Considering they've got them in stock the only real drawback to this one is the bayonet lug that'll need removing. I'm new to the area and don't know any gunsmiths around here so I'd need to hunt around while having an essentially illegal rifle (separated lowers and uppers still count, right?). It'd add to the price of the upper as well.

2) Model 1 Sales - their AWB compliant uppers look interesting. Great price ($330), a target crown (coming from non-ARs these actually don't look completely unnatural to me) - unfortunately the wait time is long, and I've read about issues with their quality.

3) Stag - their SBR and right-handed uppers appear to fit my bill nicely. They're inexpensive, and can be made compliant. Unfortunately they're just about as inexpensive as the Bravo upper (and include an unneeded BCG / CH), and so I end up feeling like I'd be better off buying Bravo. Also, the wait time is unknown.

Any comments on the above options? Some good options I haven't listed? Know any gunsmiths in the Erie County area that would be happy to handle my lug removal problem?

Thanks.

 

[M1a_scoutguy]

My choice and this is my 2 cents worth only,,I'm sure others will have there opinions also,,but I say go with the BCM upper !!! It is a quality upper/hammer forged bbl,,etc,,it is a top shelf hard use upper !! If you plan on running it hard,taking classes,,training & shooting alot,,buy the BCM and never look back !! I would stay away from the Model 1 stuff,,it probably would be fine,,but why take the chance,,,,Stag has a pretty good track record around here,,so ya should be fine with them !!
Not saying this is gonna be you,,BUT many,,many people want/gotta have a AR,,they get all excited,,lay the $$$ down,,buy 100 Rd's of ammo for it,,go to the range,,shoot half the ammo,,bring the rife home put it in the safe and don't take it out for 6 months,,LOL,,if thats the case,,buy the Model 1,,it should be fine !!
Bottom line is decide what you are gonna do with the rifle and go from there,,that should be your main reason for getting the rifle,,also remember the BCM will be a better choice higher valued upper if you ever decide to sell it down the road,,its just a BETTER pick all around !!! As far as the bano-Lug,,,take a dremel/mini grinder and take off the ears on the lug,,its not hard,,its a simple process,,if your not confident,,get a buddy,,you CAN do it,,LOL !! Once you do that,,your good to go and NY Compliant,,head to the range and shoot it up !!! Keep us posted on what you decide & give us a range report once you do !!!

 

[Tifosi]

BCM fun, Model1 RUN!

Upper and lower are considered seperate items with the lower being the registered gun and the upper being mearly parts (think shotgun with multiple barrels)
You can have a non compliant upper easily and legally IOW, but, if there's only a post ban lower around to put it on things get a little fuzzy (intent to assemble they call it)

Now if you were to have the lower locked in the upstairs closet and received the upper and took it straight out to the garage and knocked the lug wings off as suggested, then you would be legal within 10 minutes of receipt.
(and do it in the 1st 10 minutes, not 10 days or 'when I get to it')

Or, have the upper sent to a smith, pay them to de~lug it, then pick it up when done.

Or, take the lower to a FFL, pay them to store it, get the upper and de~lug yourself then go pick the upper up from the FFL

Many options actually.

 

[Phlyan Pan]

Ditto on the BCM. Take a dremel and cut the bayo lug off. Hell, I think you could pull it off with a hacksaw even.

 

[Tifosi]

Point of note:
While the M1 will almost assuredly be brutallty overgassed, the BCM will be properly ported.

This means geared around 5.56mm .mil specs, and it also means it may not neccisarily cycle Big Bobs Budget Bullets.
If it does, fine, if it doesn't its not an unexpected thing and they aren't likely to give any credence to 'but I think it should' complaints.

You want some real fun to pass the time while waiting for the upper to come in?
Search the forum for steel vs brass shell casings in upper quality level guns

In any event, run it wet, and nmake sure that at least the first 500 or so rounds through it are of reasonable quality.
EG: Use M193 or M855
(available for sub 40 cents a round delivered online, or... up to 50 cents a round general local retail. Buy bulk too as many places do free shipping for a 1000rd case)

Name brand .223 is also acceptable (Remington, Federal, Horniday) but in general .223 is more expensive per unit with some 'specialty' stuff (zombie killer green, special polymer tip, uber special match grade or whatever) can approach the 60 to 70 cents a round level

But don't use something like wolf or brown bear and never, ever, ever never use someone elses reloads early on even if as a gift, and later use excessive amounts of caution with them and then only after seeing what recipe they use, watching them load it, and shooting it through thier gun first.

Note 2:
There is no 'barrel break in' proceedure, especially on the likes of BCM, and Daniel Defense or really pretty much any manufacturer if its not actually a special precision barrel. (stainless does have a break in though IIRC)

They are designed, manufactured and assembled as 'tools' not 'precision impliments'
Unless you are already an advanced precision shooter you'll not likely be able to shoot what the barrel is capable of anyway, so that 1/4 minute at 500 yards is going to meaningless anyway.
(milspec is something like sub 2 1/2 minutes at 100 yards. BCM will at minimum meet that standard and for the most part be significantly tighter)

The only things that will truly 'break in' are the buffer and action spring working the receiver extension, the hammer face working the bolt carrier, the tips of the sear and detent engagement points, the cam pin in the bcg, and the front and real faces of the bolt lugs where they interact with the barrel extension.
All of those will result in slighly smoother operation as thing work on other things, but won't effect accuracy overall (unless you've got a real **** trigger and working it snmoothes it out subastantially)

Lube it, load it, send it.
And by 'lube it', use a lot more than just a couple drops though you don't need to pour 4oz into it.
(*cough*mobil1engineoil*cough*dextron2atf*cough* marvelmysteryoil*cough*cough*)

Some facts, some opinion but no gospel up there.
With it and 2$ you can get a cup of coffee

 

[Weylund]

Thanks for the comprehensive replies, guys. Sounds like Bravo Company is where this is headed. I'd assumed as much - the quality you get for the money is tops. My answers are below.

Edit: Missed your follow-up, Tifosi. I'll answer a couple work emails and come back to answer that.

My choice and this is my 2 cents worth only,,I'm sure others will have there opinions also,,but I say go with the BCM upper !!! It is a quality upper/hammer forged bbl,,etc,,it is a top shelf hard use upper !! If you plan on running it hard,taking classes,,training & shooting alot,,buy the BCM and never look back !! I would stay away from the Model 1 stuff,,it probably would be fine,,but why take the chance,,,,Stag has a pretty good track record around here,,so ya should be fine with them !!
Not saying this is gonna be you,,BUT many,,many people want/gotta have a AR,,they get all excited,,lay the $$$ down,,buy 100 Rd's of ammo for it,,go to the range,,shoot half the ammo,,bring the rife home put it in the safe and don't take it out for 6 months,,LOL,,if thats the case,,buy the Model 1,,it should be fine !!
Bottom line is decide what you are gonna do with the rifle and go from there,,that should be your main reason for getting the rifle,,also remember the BCM will be a better choice higher valued upper if you ever decide to sell it down the road,,its just a BETTER pick all around !!! As far as the bano-Lug,,,take a dremel/mini grinder and take off the ears on the lug,,its not hard,,its a simple process,,if your not confident,,get a buddy,,you CAN do it,,LOL !! Once you do that,,your good to go and NY Compliant,,head to the range and shoot it up !!! Keep us posted on what you decide & give us a range report once you do !!!

My brother, father and I get out and shoot every week or so - targets, basic drills. I try and get out during the week as well - I work from home so I get a fair number of opportunities. I've been working with a 15-22 for the past few months, discovered I really enjoyed the platform, and decided to pick up a 5.56. I'd like eventually to shoot competitively (possibly three gun) and do some carbine classes.

So... I'm thinking if I plan on running this even moderately hard - shooting fairly often, competing and taking classes - I should stay away from the Model 1 Sales. Stag seems to be a popular brand, but with BCM at roughly the same price I think I can't really go wrong.

BCM fun, Model1 RUN!

Upper and lower are considered seperate items with the lower being the registered gun and the upper being mearly parts (think shotgun with multiple barrels)
You can have a non compliant upper easily and legally IOW, but, if there's only a post ban lower around to put it on things get a little fuzzy (intent to assemble they call it)

Now if you were to have the lower locked in the upstairs closet and received the upper and took it straight out to the garage and knocked the lug wings off as suggested, then you would be legal within 10 minutes of receipt.
(and do it in the 1st 10 minutes, not 10 days or 'when I get to it')

Or, have the upper sent to a smith, pay them to de~lug it, then pick it up when done.

Or, take the lower to a FFL, pay them to store it, get the upper and de~lug yourself then go pick the upper up from the FFL

Many options actually.

Ahh, thanks. Yes, I thought I'd heard about "intent to assemble". In theory it shouldn't be a problem unless someone searches my house, but I like to be risk-averse, especially when it comes to felonies.

I think I'll take care of it as soon as it comes in - you're right, "when I get to it" isn't soon enough. I'm here all the time so that should be easy.

Ditto on the BCM. Take a dremel and cut the bayo lug off. Hell, I think you could pull it off with a hacksaw even.

I was thinking about taking off the bulk with a saw and grinding it smooth with my dremel. I'd heard that was the quickest / cleanest way to do it. Sound reasonable to you guys?

I'd also heard that grinding off the "ears" would solve the problem, but I don't see a consensus on whether or not every judge in the state would agree. What do you guys think? I'd heard that's how some smiths are doing it.

 

[Tifosi]

Without the ears, a bayonet cannot latch or even retain on the lug as the wings hold it up and engage the latches and the lug proper only keeps things parallel to the barrel and give a mount point for the wings.

It will literally fall off immediately if you try to affix a bayonet to a wingless lug, so it is certainly a provable point that its compliant/'demilled'

 

[Phlyan Pan]

I'd also heard that grinding off the "ears" would solve the problem, but I don't see a consensus on whether or not every judge in the state would agree. What do you guys think? I'd heard that's how some smiths are doing it.

This is one of those risk vs reward things. What's the benefit of just chopping the ears and leaving the lug itself? In my opinion none. I suppose looks if you're into that sort of thing.

The risk is that some LEO sees it and decides to run it up the chain. Even if you don't end up charged with anything it's likely to be a hassle for no reason. I say be safe and get rid of it completely.

 

[BUCKrub91]

I'm new to the area and don't know any gunsmiths around here so I'd need to hunt around while having an essentially illegal rifle (separated lowers and uppers still count, right?). It'd add to the price of the upper as well.

You can have whatever you want on your upper legally... just as long as its not connected to the lower

 

[Weylund]

Thanks guys. Yes, in theory an unassembled upper should be fine with whatever on it, but put it anywhere in the vicinity of a post-ban lower and I think they'd have grounds to ask some fairly difficult questions - as Phlyan Pan says, it may not result in any charges, but it would sure as heck be a pain in the butt.

Kind of like the old "loaded magazines in the car" question. I wouldn't want a post-ban lower and an illegally set-up upper in my trunk at the same time. Not technically illegal. Not technically legal either. Way too much wiggle room in NY's gun laws. (I just moved from CA where I wouldn't even have considered owning an AR, so you can imagine my surprise when I started to read extensively about what we have to deal with here.)

So... I'm thinking I'll go with a complete removal. I don't mind an ugly gun that works.

Speaking of which, I went to check prices at BCM (who am I kidding, I went to gawp at things ), accidentally added two uppers to my cart whilst checking shipping prices, and got a message that said "We're removing an item to match the number of items we have in stock." Lo and behold - they had one 14.5" mid-length upper left! Needless to say I bought it post-haste. I got the PWS FSC556. Thanks for the recommendations, and boy am I glad I asked you guys about this this morning!

I suppose I should update the title to the thread...

 

[Weylund]

And... the upper just shipped. I should have it in 2-3 days.

That's pretty great.

 

[evileyeswatchin]

Congrats, you made a good choice.

 

[Weylund]

Point of note:
While the M1 will almost assuredly be brutallty overgassed, the BCM will be properly ported.

This means geared around 5.56mm .mil specs, and it also means it may not neccisarily cycle Big Bobs Budget Bullets.
If it does, fine, if it doesn't its not an unexpected thing and they aren't likely to give any credence to 'but I think it should' complaints.

You want some real fun to pass the time while waiting for the upper to come in?
Search the forum for steel vs brass shell casings in upper quality level guns

In any event, run it wet, and nmake sure that at least the first 500 or so rounds through it are of reasonable quality.
EG: Use M193 or M855
(available for sub 40 cents a round delivered online, or... up to 50 cents a round general local retail. Buy bulk too as many places do free shipping for a 1000rd case)

Name brand .223 is also acceptable (Remington, Federal, Horniday) but in general .223 is more expensive per unit with some 'specialty' stuff (zombie killer green, special polymer tip, uber special match grade or whatever) can approach the 60 to 70 cents a round level

But don't use something like wolf or brown bear and never, ever, ever never use someone elses reloads early on even if as a gift, and later use excessive amounts of caution with them and then only after seeing what recipe they use, watching them load it, and shooting it through thier gun first.

Note 2:
There is no 'barrel break in' proceedure, especially on the likes of BCM, and Daniel Defense or really pretty much any manufacturer if its not actually a special precision barrel. (stainless does have a break in though IIRC)

They are designed, manufactured and assembled as 'tools' not 'precision impliments'
Unless you are already an advanced precision shooter you'll not likely be able to shoot what the barrel is capable of anyway, so that 1/4 minute at 500 yards is going to meaningless anyway.
(milspec is something like sub 2 1/2 minutes at 100 yards. BCM will at minimum meet that standard and for the most part be significantly tighter)

The only things that will truly 'break in' are the buffer and action spring working the receiver extension, the hammer face working the bolt carrier, the tips of the sear and detent engagement points, the cam pin in the bcg, and the front and real faces of the bolt lugs where they interact with the barrel extension.
All of those will result in slighly smoother operation as thing work on other things, but won't effect accuracy overall (unless you've got a real **** trigger and working it snmoothes it out subastantially)

Lube it, load it, send it.
And by 'lube it', use a lot more than just a couple drops though you don't need to pour 4oz into it.
(*cough*mobil1engineoil*cough*dextron2atf*cough* marvelmysteryoil*cough*cough*)

Some facts, some opinion but no gospel up there.
With it and 2$ you can get a cup of coffee

Thanks Tifosi, for the advice and recommendations. I've been hunting around for ammo and trying to track down a decent lube, so this is a big help. The idea that the rifle won't have a break in period is slightly foreign to me, but I've heard similar things in other places as well. Certainly seems like Bravo builds quality products.

So... don't shoot crap ammo through it (what's the point, especially if it's going to potentially mess up the bolt a la Wolf?) and run it wet. That sound right?

Congrats, you made a good choice.

Thanks. I really try not to scrimp on tools, or at least the parts thereof that I need to rely on. 'S why I end up spending a fortune whenever I need a computer for work. In comparison with that buying a quality rifle (a much more practical tool, if you ask me) looks pretty darned reasonable. I think it's cheaper to buy stuff that you know will work and last, than cheap stuff that won't do the job.

 

[Tifosi]

Don't shoot crap, run wet, correct.

Here is a really quick one:
1000rd loose bulk, Lake City brass, NATO headstamp, 55gr M193 fmj, reloadable, $370 to your door, in stock

You can probably beat it with digging. That just happened to be on one of the sites I frequent so it was an easy quick reference.
PSA has the same price for the same thing currently, but I didn't look to se if there's shipping tacked on over that.

M193 is decent stuff but the 1:7 twist is geared much more to the 62gr M855 if you're looking for a smidge more accuracy.
(pretty sure you won't notice the difference regardless)

If you're after a firearms specific lube instead, Frog~lube is quite well reputed.

 

[Weylund]

Thanks! I should be safe to buy a case of M193 - should have no problems in my upper, right?

Ouch. My Spike's lower is apparently now 4-6 months out. They've had my money for quite a while. Told me "everyone in the industry has a 4-6 month wait time"... but clearly BCM and my local gunsmith have parts. I'm going to cancel and buy a lower locally. What craziness.

 

[evileyeswatchin]

Spikes lying to their customers... : o
Not like that's happened before.

 

[Weylund]

I can understand the business logic behind taking people's money and then not giving them anything for six months. I just didn't think it was legal. Isn't there a limit on how long they can have your money before they need to provide a product, or estimate for delivery thereof? I work in a different industry, also with hard-to-estimate delivery times, and we're very careful about not charging people unless we know we'll be delivering within a short (and known to the customer) amount of time.

I found a local gunsmith. I'm currently having a pleasant email chat with them about building a lower for me. It'll be a little more expensive than the Spike's, but my FFL will have it by Tuesday. As an added bonus I should be able to get my upper de-lugged without having to take a hacksaw to it.

Ammo update - I bought a fair amount of a number of types of ammunition. Prvi, Federal, and Winchester. I figured I'd see how they all ran before I committed to 1000 rounds of anything. I figure the Federal will be my expert-recommended control group. I also plan on picking some ammo up from my FFL when the lower comes in... I like to support my FLGS.

 

[Weylund]

My upper arrived today. It's gorgeous. Came with a heap of free goodies, too. Can't wait to get the complete rifle assembled.

Now to deal with the bayonet lug...

 

[Tifosi]

Roxors!

But pix or it didn't happen

 

[Weylund]

Here ya go! Still haven't removed the lug - but then I'm still waiting on my lower (the build for it hasn't even started yet; I probably won't have it until next week), so there's no possible "intent to assemble" to worry about. I'll probably get to take care of that tomorrow morning.