New York Firearms Forum banner
21 - 40 of 64 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
My thought exactly! On the other hand, the denial may be so egregious it may benefit the appeal. I'll find out more tomorrow. SMFH
Maybe. But they didn't deny you a permit. They denied a Sportsperson restriction that does not even appear on their website as an option anymore. My concern is that since the restrictions are essentially invented by the judges, they can eliminate them, change the requirements for them and issue them or deny them completely at their whim. There is no law, code or even description that you can point to in order to claim that their denial was egregious. Egregious compared to what? Good luck and I hope you are successful. Your success is all of our success.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Maybe. But they didn't deny you a permit. They denied a Sportsperson restriction that does not even appear on their website as an option anymore. My concern is that since the restrictions are essentially invented by the judges, they can eliminate them, change the requirements for them and issue them or deny them completely at their whim. There is no law, code or even description that you can point to in order to claim that their denial was egregious. Egregious compared to what? Good luck and I hope you are successful. Your success is all of our success.
All very valid points. Right now I'm just hoping for the best with some wishful thinking. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to the process in Westchester County. I just received my approval letter for two recent purchases (#'s 5 and 6 ), took 2 weeks to the day and no home inspection, which from what I heard is almost mandatory after #5 (no written law just what I've been told). So go figure. I guess I'm hoping my attorney is so "infuriated" that she goes at this like it's personal.:unhappy:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
All very valid points. Right now I'm just hoping for the best with some wishful thinking. There is no rhyme or reason when it comes to the process in Westchester County. I just received my approval letter for two recent purchases (#'s 5 and 6 ), took 2 weeks to the day and no home inspection, which from what I heard is almost mandatory after #5 (no written law just what I've been told). So go figure. I guess I'm hoping my attorney is so "infuriated" that she goes at this like it's personal.:unhappy:
Just be careful it doesn't cost you an arm and a leg to make a point. When all is said and done, there is really very little practical difference between a Sportsperson restriction and a Target restriction. I imagine it could cost about $2500 just to engage the attorney to review material and write some letters. If the attorney has to appear before the judge look out $$$. Again, good luck. I hope you get a favorable outcome for a reasonable cost. I am rooting for you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Thanks man, I appreciate the kind thoughts. As of now it's not that bad $$$. But that is as far as I'm going. The current cost does include a letter and the paper work for the appeal ( if it's warranted ). Guess I'll find out tomorrow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #26 ·
I can't post the entire response until after we submit the appeal, but I will give you a quick summary.
First, He thought my statement was a general need. "We do not distill extraordinary danger from this statement. A self-protection firearm license should only be issued if there is some extraordinary, particularized danger to be protected against. Other applicant's for self protection firearm licenses issued by Westchester County show verifiable proof of danger or other compelling need."
Second, the license sought is over-broad in that it apparently would allow the applicant to carry a firearm for any recreational
use, including uses nit documented in the firearm license application. This differs from all other restricted firearm licenses issued by Westchester County where the firearm use is strictly determined in advance and listed on the license card. In this way, the allowed firearm use is certain to the license-holder, to law-enforcement officers and to members of the public generally. Certainty of firearm use improves public safety.
Third, the recreational activities cited by the applicant could be done locally. This is a problem because of the population density of Westchester County is too high to allow a handgun to be fired at animals in public spaces with the complete safety to other persons in the same area.
Finally, most people who engage in outdoor recreational activities such as those cited by the applicant do so without being armed with a firearm. This applicant has not shown how he is different from such other persons.
There's a bit more, but I think you can see whats going on here. Someone doesn't want me to have this for personal beliefs! I stated that I did my activities upstate not at the Valhala Dam! I also stated that I would carry for all lawful purposes, which means that I wouldn't carry where it wasn't lawful to do so. So he's assuming a bunch of things here and for that I'm being denied my rights.

It's always about the County's personal opinions, which are completely UNAUTHORIZED under the statute…they are acting outside of their statutory authority and should be restrained by a court Order. The licensing statute is an ex parte application - between the applicant and the judge/licensing officer. NOT a litigated issue between the applicant as one party and the County as an opposing party…And, the County is NOT legal advisor to the licensing officer…they are not practicing attorneys and the only judge's law clerk is his/her legal advisor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
Wow if you already had your target license you really got shafted. I recently heard that the County is telling judges behind closed doors not to issue any permits outside of target from the start. Something along the lines of the higher ups want to keep Latamir happy. With that being said even though sportsperson is still in the penal law judges are being strongly encouraged to phase it out. Full Carries are back to Law enforcement only or special circumstances similar to how NYC handles it. Business permits are more of an uphill climb as well. There may be some give down the line with issuing Sportsperson permits again, but I do not think it will be like it was unless another Astorino gets the County Executive seat. Good luck with the process, sucks to see another gun owner go through such nonsense.
Hi Tony, Thanks for the input. I have had my Target licence for a year now. So this was to amend to Sportsperson, which should have favored me even more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
Wow if you already had your target license you really got shafted. I recently heard that the County is telling judges behind closed doors not to issue any permits outside of target from the start. Something along the lines of the higher ups want to keep Latamir happy. With that being said even though sportsperson is still in the penal law judges are being strongly encouraged to phase it out. Full Carries are back to Law enforcement only or special circumstances similar to how NYC handles it. Business permits are more of an uphill climb as well. There may be some give down the line with issuing Sportsperson permits again, but I do not think it will be like it was unless another Astorino gets the County Executive seat. Good luck with the process, sucks to see another gun owner go through such nonsense.
Actually there is no provision at all for restrictions (Sportsperson or otherwise) in the NY Penal Code:

Article 400 | NYS Penal Law | Licensing Provisions Firearms

This is why it is totally at the discretion of the licensing authority what restrictions they impose or eliminate. The reason why they can do this is not in the law itself, but because cases challenging the validity of these administrative restrictions have upheld the right of the licensing authority to impose them. Until a case is brought challenging them that results in the restrictions being declared unlawful or until NYS passes a law stating administrative restrictions cannot be imposed, I think we are stuck with this arbitrary and unfair system in Westchester. I wish the OP luck in getting the decision reversed. A reversal would be based totally on a change of heart by the judge. There really is no other reason for him to change his decision as Sportsperson is no longer even a restriction category in Westchester as Tony states above. I have been told that it was eliminated because it was too vague. I don't see it coming back anytime soon other than for rare, specific applications strongly justifying and supporting "sporting" activities when they apply for a target/hunting or try for an "upgrade". Others on this forum can comment better, but I believe the Sportsperson restriction had only been an option in Westchester for 4 or 5 years anyway and was not even an option before that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30 Posts
Discussion Starter · #30 ·
My Attorney, assured me this type of license has been around for approximately 15 years. That being said. 4 years /15 years whats the difference, if there taking it away! Wonder what will happen to all the holders of SportsPerson licensing during renewal time.
On another note, I should be receiving the new letter to the judge sometime this week for my approval. Fingers crossed for luck!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts
My Attorney, assured me this type of license has been around for approximately 15 years. That being said. 4 years /15 years whats the difference, if there taking it away! Wonder what will happen to all the holders of SportsPerson licensing during renewal time.
On another note, I should be receiving the new letter to the judge sometime this week for my approval. Fingers crossed for luck!!!!!
According to the Detective in the Pistol Permit Office, this will not effect renewals.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
294 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
248 Posts
Looked online can't find em. The way it was explained to me was if you check off "other" and fill in Sportsperson you can technically still apply for it. My guess is since they still honor existing Sportsperson restricted Licenses and it was apparently in a book given out on where you can and cannot carry, it should be written in their somewhere. Who knows though this is NY and our laws, codes, ordinances etc. do not make sense

Tony, can you post a link to the County codes? I am having trouble finding them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
Licenses and Permits

This is complete garbage. I cannot believe that we are treated like criminals in this state. Why can't they just leave us alone? Best of luck to you.
Actually, no. We are being treated as a person (both legal fiction and real) who has made a poor deal for ourselves negotiating a contract.
All licenses and permits are contracts, there is nothing Constitutional about them. In fact concerning a pistol permit, you "willingly" gave up your 2nd Amendment right in favor of that contract and its terms. Unfortunately for us, we are not the party in control of the contract's terms, that would be the state, county, judge, and courts... and they get to alter or void the contract's terms upon a whim. This happens because most of us do not understand what it is we are "legally" doing when getting involved with the modern government and courts.

The modern government and courts do not operate under Constitutional Law anymore, and haven't since the 1930's. The now operate under a system of contract law they call "Statutory Jurisdiction". In that jurisdiction of law the Constitution and Bill of Rights simply do not exist, everything and every interaction is done by contracting.
Statutory Jurisdiction also operates under a number of old Roman maxims of law, one of which is "Qui vult decipi, decipiatur"... which basically translates to "Let him who would be deceived, be deceived". In other words, its fair game to trick you. And they do so by offering you hidden contracts, such as licenses and permits, where you 'willingly' give up your rights when you apply for and accept them.

Statutory Jurisdiction also operates on the "legal' assumption that you know this is going on and are okay with it, otherwise your would protest. If you don't protest, your silence is taken as your consent. (Does the 5th Amendment make more sense to you beyond its use in the courtroom now?) If you don't know this is going on, in the court's view that's just too bad for you because they expect you to know. Hence the phrase, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse'. This is what they are actually talking about when they throw that out there. Don't except a lawyer to ever tell you about this either. Its not in the best interest of their bank accounts or profession for you to realize this legal fraud is taking place... just as its not in the judges' or court's best interest. Statutory Jurisdiction is very lucrative for those who work in and run the system.

Your pistol permit is just another contract where they tricked you into giving up a right you already had to do something, charge you a fee for the privilege of being run around in legal circles to get a limited version of a "right" you already had, that they control. Plus they can spread your wealth around the legal machine when you have to hire lawyers, who are officers of the court themselves, when you have to fight to tweak the terms of a contract you didn't know you were involved in. In all, Statutory Jurisdiction is the greatest scam ever pulled on an entire population.
It all boils down to you either have a right or you have a contract. You cannot have both at the same time as you must give up one (the right) the get the other (the contract).
If you think this is bad, you probably don't even want to know what you are "legally" doing when you register something with the government. (And how many of you have to register firearms? Yup, more legalized fraud contracting.)
 
21 - 40 of 64 Posts
Top