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So after 15 weeks of waiting Judge Zuckerman has denied my amendment. The letter is two pages but here's the important part. The letter states that "Based upon the facts and circumstances of this application, including the submitted correspondence and the aforementioned investigation by the Westchester County Department of Public Safety, the applicant has failed to demonstrate that he is in any specific kind of danger, or that he has a particularized need for protection different from that of the general public, during the course of outdoor activities. See penal law article 400. therefore, the applicant has not met the necessary proper cause for the issuance of a Sportsperson licence and indeed his failure to specify any specific threat to his safety or need for protection constitutes good cause for denial of the application for amendment.
My letter:
Your Honor, I'm requesting the Sportsperson change for the sake of hiking, camping, fishing and biking in upstate NY where many wild animals such as bears, coyotes and mountain lions have been spotted. I spend a lot of time, as much as two weekends a month outdoors doing family activities with my wife and children, this includes our dogs. I would like to be able to protect my family should an unfortunate situation arise with an aggressive animal. I intend to carry my firearm for all lawful purposes, I will be in strict compliance with my administrative restrictions and that a change to Sportsperson would allow me the freedom to enjoy the many outdoor activities I enjoy with my family without the fear of attack from the wildlife mentioned above. I would also like to mention I target shoot a minimum of twice a week. Thank you for your time and consideration..
Thoughts and opinions are greatly appreciated.
 

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I’m not familiar with your judge or county, but maybe stating all lawful purposes would indicate you might concealed carry it. Who knows. You also state you’ll follow all admin restrictions so maybe he’s just a jerk. Also why would you need another investigation for an upgrade.
 

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This issue here is you did not indicate in your request to amend your license any specific threats to you. You mentioned that wild animals had been spotted. It may have been stronger if you had said that while hiking and camping you have spotted coyotes or bears or mountain lions and are therefore concerned for your personal safety as well as that of your family and pets when you engage in these activities.

The challenge in Westchester is that they interpret the proper cause requirement in the NYS penal code as pertaining to the applicant specifically and the bar they use is that the cause must be greater than that of the general public. Since we do not read about widespread bear, coyote and mountain lion attacks on campers and hikers in upstate NY, the threat would have to be specific to you in order for you to convince them that your risk is greater than the general public.

This proper cause issue has mainly been the barrier to Full Carry in Westchester. However, the new administration in the county has been more strict and has made even Sportsperson extremely difficult.

If if you truly do believe you are at risk during these activities, you could contact a 2A lawyer and see if they think you have grounds to appeal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

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I appreciate your answer. According to my 2A attorney, there should be no reason for denial. My letter was more then sufficient according to her. You can follow up here if you like a good read. https://newyorkgunforums.com/threads/denied-my-sportsperson-amendment.27589/ I will definitely be filling an appeal. Already in the works.,
Just read through. Seemed to meander on and off topic (existence of mountain lions in NY!!!!!). Now that you have an attorney, you should be all set at least with the answers to your questions. Main issue is the restrictions are essentially made up by the licensing officers (judges) as they are extra legal (not at all described in Penal Code). Since the judges made them up (the restrictions) they can pretty much do whatever they want with granting them or not.

Good luck.

Keep us posted on this forum too.
 

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This may or may not be applicable to your situation, I have no idea but it has been my experience that simply writing the Judge and asking for restrictions to be lifted because you want to hunt in PA, and PA will not issue a permit to a restricted NY'er seemed to work in every instance.

Like I said, I dont know if this would be applicable in your county and situation.

As a side note.You wouldn't believe the letter my wife wrote to ask, and it worked, but our Judge here is very lenient. and we are also very rural.
 

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This may or may not be applicable to your situation, I have no idea but it has been my experience that simply writing the Judge and asking for restrictions to be lifted because you want to hunt in PA, and PA will not issue a permit to a restricted NY'er seemed to work in every instance.

Like I said, I dont know if this would be applicable in your county and situation.

As a side note.You wouldn't believe the letter my wife wrote to ask, and it worked, but our Judge here is very lenient. and we are also very rural.
Unlikely to work in Westchester. Besides, PA will issue non resident pistol permits to NY permit holders with restricted permits. I got one this past summer in Centre County. Very easy process.
 

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All I ever hear from the Westchester judges is denials. You put protection in your letter, that is a call sign to the judge that you may at some point use a firearm for protection. You can't do that in Westchester!, highly frowned upon as that county along with NYC is very unfriendly towards owners of firearm

.I see that you didn't put hunting in your letter. Go get your hunting license. Even if you do not ever go hunting it is a very good reason for the sportsman uprating. Its much easier to carry 3lbs of steel in the woods than 8lbs of steel and wood or plastic.

If you really want to be able to carry legally in the great outdoors, get out of Westchester. Don't get me wrong, its a nice area to live. They aren't very friendly to people who own firearms though. It makes no sense that I can and do carry in Westchester when you can't

....Ron
 

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i agree with your attorney. you want it for the purposes of "sportsman". you aren't requesting FULL CARRY. that is total BS. i lived in westchester and from what i understood from the officers at my gun range is that in westchester if you apply for FULL CARRY, unless you've held your restricted license for at least 5yrs w/o issues with the law, they will deny you.
i moved and transferred into putnam and got my Full Carry just by writing a letter holding my westchester sportsman for 2yrs. i was shocked.

I appreciate your answer. According to my 2A attorney, there should be no reason for denial. My letter was more then sufficient according to her. You can follow up here if you like a good read. https://newyorkgunforums.com/threads/denied-my-sportsperson-amendment.27589/ I will definitely be filling an appeal. Already in the works.,
 

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agreed...westchester along with most of ny sucks. i moved to putnam and bam...got fully carry in no time.

All I ever hear from the Westchester judges is denials. You put protection in your letter, that is a call sign to the judge that you may at some point use a firearm for protection. You can't do that in Westchester!, highly frowned upon as that county along with NYC is very unfriendly towards owners of firearm

.I see that you didn't put hunting in your letter. Go get your hunting license. Even if you do not ever go hunting it is a very good reason for the sportsman uprating. Its much easier to carry 3lbs of steel in the woods than 8lbs of steel and wood or plastic.

If you really want to be able to carry legally in the great outdoors, get out of Westchester. Don't get me wrong, its a nice area to live. They aren't very friendly to people who own firearms though. It makes no sense that I can and do carry in Westchester when you can't

....Ron
 

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Exactly what Steve89 said. You have to articulate the specific reason you "need", not want a license with the specific restriction.

Personally, I don't like that "all lawful purposes" line. It's like when someone tells you "let me be honest with you" before they say something. It immediately makes me think ok, so if you didn't say that, were you going to lie to me? Or have you 'not' been telling me the truth up til just now? More useful than "all lawful purposes" in a Sportsman restriction would be to indicate that you are aware of where you can't carry, say while you're hiking or hunting, and a full understanding of in what case you could and/or could not use lethal force to show them that you know what the law is and how you will follow it.
 

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Good Afternoon:

Thank you for sharing your post with the gun forum community.

Unfortunately, many pistol applicants are denied when applying for an upgrade or conceal carry in Rockland County. When applying for such a license, the Judge is looking for something particular about you which distinguishes yourself from the rest of the community. An extreme example would be that you testified against the "gang boss" and have reasonable fear for your life. As an alternative, you can also apply for a business carry license which allows you to carry in connection with your employment. If you are in fact the owner of a business, you for the most part able to carry 90% of the time being that you are on call 24/7.

As an aside, Judge Zuckerman recently has been replaced by Judge Schwartz. This can be beneficial to you as Judge Schwartz will review your application with fresh eyes. Although this is not a guarantee, it does have the possibility of working in your favor. My recommendation would be to speak with an attorney who may be able to have the decision revisited. You are usually afforded 30 days to send in said request. as another option, you can always re-apply in a year. If you are interested in speaking more or have questions, please feel welcome to send a private message.

Best of Luck,

Adam Gonzalez
Director of Administration
The Law Offices of David Fried, PC
 

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That letter seemed fine to me, I know plenty of people who wrote similar things for their Sportsperson restrictions. Judge Zuckerman sounds new to the permit division I have yet to see on of his signatures on anything. Westchester has actively been trying to crack down on Sportsperson permits for a couple of reasons, so it could very well be that you just got shafted. My advice is to just go for target for now you can always apply for Sportsperson afterwords and you will have experience under your belt. Besides that the only thing I would suggest adding to the letter is any firearm experience you already have, training going to the range, how long you have been shooting etc.
 
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