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While the fear may be rational, Kaste said the danger is when police view every situation as an extreme situation.
On a local level, the most recent extreme event that brought together multiple police forces with military equipment was a hostage situation in March 2013 in a small Victor neighborhood. Police forces were in a 12-hour standoff with the suspect, Ryan Whidden, who was armed and held his wife as a hostage in their home.
About 50 or 60 officers from the Ontario and Monroe County sheriff's offices, the Rochester Police Department, New York state police, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives responded to the Victor standoff.
While the event took place in a small Ontario County community, larger local departments and national agencies were called in to respond toting more serious, military-grade equipment than what's in the Ontario County Sheriff's Office's arsenal. Everything from tear gas, "flash bangs" and a robot - all non-lethal weapons - were used to respond.

Cops and soldiers: Where's the line? - News - MPNnow - Canandaigua, NY
 

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I understand the protection of a police officer. A human being, doing a hazzardous job and should be afforded every measure to protect themselves. I don't understand the differences between a leo and a law abiding citizen. Mostly, leos respond in force..have all types of "teams" Per the latest shooting in Fergucson, it was stated a leo has the right to shoot an unarmed man if he feels he is in eminent danger,fearful of life. Now,at least in New Yorkistan...a law abiding citizen cannot use deadly force except in a life threatening situation. We are human beings trying to exist in a not so safe world and extremely limited.
 

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not sure how I feel about this. the need of a leo to defend them selves is not disputable but it seems to me that there training should not be in the military style. military is basicly force on force. no doubt the other person is armed and ready to kill you. in a civilian situation this is not always the case. how to get aropund the problem seems to be the conundrum. criminals are no more violent today than they were in the past heck in the 20 and 30 the tommy gun and the bar were weapons of choice and as we all know they are a bit more deadly than a 9mm pistol or an ar. sure am glad that the choice ins't mine.
 

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Good article.

There are many differences between a Soldier and a Law enforcement officer.

The biggest difference is that Soldiers are trained very well for war. The police are not! I do not want them to be!

Soldiers train for hundreds, thousands of hours on their equipment. A team assigned to an MRAP for example in the Army train together on that piece of equipment until everything about it comes second nature.

Soldiers train regularly on their assigned weapons, whether large or small firearm. Most are very proficient.

Most Soldiers live up to the standards of the Laws of War and the Rules of Engagement. Many Soldiers have lost their lives because of these rules that they follow. If the rules are not followed, fellow Soldiers die. If the rules are not followed, the Soldier goes to jail or faces other serious punishment. Military prisons have many Soldiers who fail to follow the rules.

Most Soldiers understand what their job is, they understand that not all persons in a combat area are the enemy.


I want all LE to have the needed equipment to do their job correctly. I want them all to survive everytime they go on shift. I want them to be safe and go home to their families each and every night/day!

I want them to have all tools needed to complete their duties, the same as I want all Firemen to have all tools to complete theirs. I want all professions to have the equipment/tools that they need as well. Just because putting fires out with an airplane would be cool, most fire departments have no NEED for said plane.
 

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..... the suspect, Ryan Whidden, ........About 50 or 60 officers from the Ontario and Monroe County sheriff's offices, the Rochester Police Department, New York state police, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives responded to the Victor standoff.
OK, Here is the problem I see....... "I believe" that a proportionate response should be used. If you want to talk someone off a ledge, you might not want 50-60 people on that ledge with him. Was there a reasonable assumption on the part of ALL these agencies that that man could reasonably take out 5-10 locals let alone 30-40 officers mandating that everyone respond? Sure a better negotiator might be needed, maybe a sharpshooter, but sometimes if you have too big a force, you may just take any hope away from the subject for a peaceful resolution.....
 

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I understand the protection of a police officer. A human being, doing a hazzardous job and should be afforded every measure to protect themselves. I don't understand the differences between a leo and a law abiding citizen. Mostly, leos respond in force..have all types of "teams" Per the latest shooting in Fergucson, it was stated a leo has the right to shoot an unarmed man if he feels he is in eminent danger,fearful of life. Now,at least in New Yorkistan...a law abiding citizen cannot use deadly force except in a life threatening situation. We are human beings trying to exist in a not so safe world and extremely limited.
Different states with different laws as to what a citizen or LEO can do. Basically the difference here is duty to retreat and where it applies. Someone uses force against you, you can defend yourself or another but you have a duty to retreat if you safely can and it is not one of the other exceptions to it. A police/peace officer does not have to retreat and can use force in an arrest/crowd control situation. Some exceptions to the duty to retreat fall under arson, robbery, rape, burg. You can also use physical force to defend your property but not deadly physical force.
 

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"We're fortunate that those type of hostage situations occur very rarely, but we do see other types of situations where persons barricade themselves," Povero said. "Persons wanted on felony warrants, they may barricade themselves. The emergency response team persons can be called on standby on that and utilized if necessary."

For me, this is the most telling paragraph and this is the key phrase.

Phil Povero and Barry Virts are a couple smart guys. I don't have the link handy but read today that something like 79% of SWAT, ERT call-outs are for service of warrants. To paraphrase...... when you have a big hammer you will look for nails.

 

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The police objective was serve and protect. The has gone out the window with their new war tools.

Give war tools top the police and they will find a way to use them against the citizens.
 

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The police objective was serve and protect. The has gone out the window with their new war tools.

Give war tools top the police and they will find a way to use them against the citizens.
Be careful..this sounds like the same language the anti's use when attacking "our" rifles with adjustable stocks, pistol grips etc.
 

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Be careful..this sounds like the same language the anti's use when attacking "our" rifles with adjustable stocks, pistol grips etc.
Except theirs are select fire short barrels with standard mags that they rolled up with in their freaking MRAP tank... I think his language is dead on. The police that are being armored up with this kind of crap are incentivized to use it, so they use it even in situations that don't call for it. So he's right, give them the tools of a war, train them like they were going to war, and don't be surprised when they START a war.
 

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Except theirs are select fire short barrels with standard mags that they rolled up with in their freaking MRAP tank... I think his language is dead on. The police that are being armored up with this kind of crap are incentivized to use it, so they use it even in situations that don't call for it. So he's right, give them the tools of a war, train them like they were going to war, and don't be surprised when they START a war.
Be careful..this sounds like the same language the anti's use when attacking "our" rifles with adjustable stocks, pistol grips etc
 

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The police objective was serve and protect. The has gone out the window with their new war tools.

Give war tools top the police and they will find a way to use them against the citizens.
Very true. Your statement is right on. The more weapon system an "Army" is given, the more ways they will find to use them!

Be careful..this sounds like the same language the anti's use when attacking "our" rifles with adjustable stocks, pistol grips etc
Doesn't sound anything like the Libs, anti's or progressives who want to take away the Rights of a citizen!
 

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Aside from the drastic difference in training I think mentality plays a huge difference in the two. I think a soldier has to have that mindset of kill or be killed and to an extent put discretion on the back burner and act in a superior forceful manner. I think the average police officer needs to be extremely alert and in control of his or her situation while treating citizens as equals which we are and keeping civil rights in mind. Being able to utilize a soldiers mindset in certain situations would be invaluable to the police but the majority of the time it would cause countless incidents. The line between soldiers and cops comes down to the individual and the mindset they go to work with.
 

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Soldiers do more with less and typically have stricter rules to engage. Police have every tool they need and can do what they want all they need is to be afraid. There is no line it's gone, there life is more important then yours.
regardless if your guilty or not.
 

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Soldiers do more with less and typically have stricter rules to engage. Police have every tool they need and can do what they want all they need is to be afraid. There is no line it's gone, there life is more important then yours.
regardless if your guilty or not.
Agreed. This one is long gone....the country woke up far too late.

The police are a bad joke. You don't use military weapons on civilians. CIVILIANS! Even criminals, and I don't support them in any way, are still CIVILIANS. Innocent until proven guilty is an empty promise.

We give our military these weapons because its US (to include our Armed Forces and the Country that supports them) against THEM (to include our ENEMIES, thus we are at WAR with them). At what point did we allow our police to adopt this attitude concerning the citizens they are supposed to serve?

Andy Griffith didn't even let poor Barney carry a loaded gun.......imagine giving him a MRAP. Brother, there are more Barney Fifes in LE than Andy Griffiths today.
 

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Agreed. This one is long gone....the country woke up far too late.

The police are a bad joke. You don't use military weapons on civilians. CIVILIANS! Even criminals, and I don't support them in any way, are still CIVILIANS. Innocent until proven guilty is an empty promise.

We give our military these weapons because its US (to include our Armed Forces and the Country that supports them) against THEM (to include our ENEMIES, thus we are at WAR with them). At what point did we allow our police to adopt this attitude concerning the citizens they are supposed to serve?

Andy Griffith didn't even let poor Barney carry a loaded gun.......imagine giving him a MRAP. Brother, there are more Barney Fifes in LE than Andy Griffiths today.
Ummmm, it was a television show.... Just saying,....
 

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Ummmm, it was a television show.... Just saying,....
Right. The point remains. I'll draw that comparison all day. Over-eager, over-zealous, and self-important to the point of comedy if the dog and pony show didn't affect the rest of us.

You know who became cops out of my high school class?......all of the donkeys who should have never been trusted with the authority. Something's wrong with the whole lousy system if those are the types of clowns that get a badge.

No, police do nothing for me.
 

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I understand the protection of a police officer. A human being, doing a hazzardous job and should be afforded every measure to protect themselves. I don't understand the differences between a leo and a law abiding citizen. Mostly, leos respond in force..have all types of "teams" Per the latest shooting in Fergucson, it was stated a leo has the right to shoot an unarmed man if he feels he is in eminent danger,fearful of life. Now,at least in New Yorkistan...a law abiding citizen cannot use deadly force except in a life threatening situation. We are human beings trying to exist in a not so safe world and extremely limited.
In new York it must be life threatening and you pretty much have no way to escape it. And you're in trouble if that guy wasn't armed. It's a joke and it's not right.
 
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