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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
http://www.volokh.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/woollard.pdf

No Lawyers - Only Guns and Money: In Gun Rights Litigation News

4th Circuit takes the same approach as the 2d Circuit in Kachalsky v. Westchester County. The Second Amendment applies outside the home, but states and localities can require a "good and substantial reason" in order to get a carry license in the interest of public safety.

As Alan Gura says, "It's not much of a right if the police can demand that you satisfy their vision of a 'good and substantial reason' to exercise it. The next step is for courts to tell Americans that they need a 'good and substantial reason' to speak, worship or be secure from unreasonable searches."

N.Y. Gun Groups Sue Over Law as Maryland Permits Upheld - Businessweek
 

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As Alan Gura says, "It's not much of a right if the police can demand that you satisfy their vision of a 'good and substantial reason' to exercise it. The next step is for courts to tell Americans that they need a 'good and substantial reason' to speak, worship or be secure from unreasonable searches."
Brutally honest assessment, Gura absolutely nails it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Looking closer at the panel, I'm not surprised the 4th Circuit ruled against the Second Amendment.

Judge Judge Albert Diaz: Obama appointee, born and raised in Brooklyn.

Judge Andre Davis: Clinton/Obama appointee, born in Baltimore.

Judge Robert Bruce King: Clinton appointee, from West Virginia.

Three liberals, two of them urban liberals.

See, everyone, this is how Obama can destroy the Second Amendment without signing a single piece of legislation. He appoints judges who don't believe in the RKBA, and this is what happens.
 

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SCOTUS is gonna be busy soon with all these 2A cases.
With conseravative justices like Chief Justice Roberts in the SCOTUS they're the last court on earth that I'd want to decide about our 2nd amendment rights. Just look at what that damn loser did to us with Obamacare! They can be depended on as much as our republican state senators who voted with El Douche Cuomo. To win we'll need Devine Intervention.
 

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With conseravative justices like Chief Justice Roberts in the SCOTUS they're the last court on earth that I'd want to decide about our 2nd amendment rights. Just look at what that damn loser did to us with Obamacare! They can be depended on as much as our republican state senators who voted with El Douche Cuomo. To win we'll need Devine Intervention.
Wow I remember when the "Rocket-Docket" was the most Conservative Circuit.

The more one studies the US Supreme Court, the more clear it is they are without principles generally and act as corporate pawns on financial matters, it is not a "conservative" position per se to be a corporate concubine. .

So-called wedge issues offer a different read, the liberals will be hopelessly NOT liberal, or rather not classical liberals-they would actually support our cause if they practiced true "liberalism," and the so-called Conservatives (who have been hostile to the Death Penalty) are also human garbage.

All we have is Heller to read the tea leaves with, though not the strongest majority opinion, Justice Scalia did wonders cementing the 2A as an individual right. Picture where we would be w/o it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,screwed…………..
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

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I'm getting the feeling the court doesn't want to step in right now with gun rights.

A theoretical right is not a right. If a normal citizen with no felonies etc cannot exercise it, it doesn't exist.
My take on it is this. I think they are waiting for Scalia or Kennedy to retire before Obama's term ends so they can easily appoint another left wing nut job so they can get the majority vote to strike out the second amendment.

James
 

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My take on it is this. I think they are waiting for Scalia or Kennedy to retire before Obama's term ends so they can easily appoint another left wing nut job so they can get the majority vote to strike out the second amendment.

James
That's exactly how I see it. Hopefully none of them quits/croaks before Obama's term is over...
 

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I would think the conservative justices would want to make these vertical rulings before retiring. I also hope they have the strength to not retire/ expire before nobamas term is up.
My take on it is this. I think they are waiting for Scalia or Kennedy to retire before Obama's term ends so they can easily appoint another left wing nut job so they can get the majority vote to strike out the second amendment.

James
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I was really disappointed (and shocked) when the Court denied certiorari on Kachalsky. But I do still think they will hear a CCW case soon.

Kachalsky had a few problems with it, from a judge's perspective. The challenged law is over 100 years old. Both the district court and the 2d Circuit ruled for New York State and Westchester County--so that Gura was asking SCOTUS to overturn two lower court decisions. That's big. It also probably didn't help that the Kachalsky opinion was written by a conservative, Judge Wesley. And as Professor Adam Winkler said, guns were such a hot political issue these past few months, the Court may have wanted to let things settle down a little before weighing in.

The 7th Circuit case, Moore v. Madigan, would be ideal, both for us and for the judges. All SCOTUS would have to do is affirm the 7th Circuit's ruling, which was written by Judge Posner, perhaps the most respected judge who's not on SCOTUS. The question there is very narrow--does the 2A protect a right to carry a concealed handgun outside the home? Judge Posner said yes, such that Illinois can't completely ban CCW.

But the state may not appeal in Moore, depending on what the Illinois legislature comes up with in terms of a CCW licensing regime.

Woollard in the 4th Circuit would be less ideal that Moore but still better than Kachalsky, since the district court wrote a strong opinion in favor of the RKBA, and a 4th Circuit panel of Democrats overturned the lower court's ruling. The fact that there's a split between the district & circuit courts (as there is in Moore, too), increases the chances that SCOTUS will take the case. It's best (for us) when the Circuit Court opinion is pro-2A, though, as it was in Heller and as it is in Moore. But still, the Maryland district court's opinion in Woollard gives SCOTUS something to work with, whereas in Kachalsky, they essentially had nothing.

I think the decision not to hear Kachalsky was a strategic one by the pro-gun justices of the SCOTUS. They want to issue a good opinion that will stand the test of time. So they need to make sure everything is in place from a procedural standpoint.
 

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The judicial branch is the only branch we have left. Democracy has reached the 51% threshold where the "majority" feels entitled to redistribute wealth and take away constitutional rights. When we lose the judicial branch, things are going to get dicey.
 

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I think Kachalsky went after the wrong thing. The license to purchase should have been the focus of the suit not the conceal carry aspect. They may be able to require you to have a reason to carry, they cannot demand you have a good reason to exercise your rights to purchase a firearms.
 

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Wouldn't "good and substantial reason" be: The fact that Government doesn't enforce laws, which in turn allows repeat violent offenders to prey upon its citizens.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I have on my calendar that Gura's deadline for filing a certiorari petition to the SCOTUS in Woollard v. Gallagher is today, but I can't find any more information on the status of the appeal (nor can I find the source for my belief that today is the deadline. . .)

Anyone have any more information?

With a Madigan appeal increasingly unlikely with the passage of the Illinois CCW bill (unless the governor vetoes it), this may be our best chance to get a CCW case before this Court.
 
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