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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
This happened to me a couple of years ago at a big chain sporting goods store.

I went into the store, found a rifle I liked, waited over 45 minutes for the sales clerk to finish a deal with another customer, negotiated a price with said clerk, filled out NICS paperwork, ran NICS, cleared by FBI, handed credit card to said clerk, box with rifle inside is under my arm, clerk half-way rang up sale, then he says...

"Wait, you wrote on here that you live in Queens county?"
I say, "Yes, that's correct."
Clerk replies, "Do you have a NYC Rifle/Shotgun permit?"
I reply, "No."

From there it goes into a back and forth conversation that goes no where about NYS law and NYC law and store policies and me having purchased rifles there before and me even helping my cousin with a purchase (who lives around the corner from me in Queens) just the week before.

As I am leaving the store, totally heartbroken mind you, I see a manager and explain quickly what happened and ask if the clerk was correct, he tells me yes, I need to show a NYC Rifle/Shotgun Permit to purchase a long gun in upstate NY. Suddenly my cousin and uncle (who I didnt even know was in the store!) comes walking out where I am speaking to this manager, holding a box of .45 rounds he just bought to shoot with the Henry he just bought the week before in the same store! My cousin and uncle immediately get involved and ask questions and insist that rifles were purchased there many times before with out a hitch. Then the clerk that I dealt with is walking by and gets involved too.

The clerk that I dealt with turns out to actually be a manager also, and after my cousin explains his purchase the week before, the manager asks for the salesman's name because he would be fired immediately! My cousin was of course taken back and said "Even if I remembered his name I wouldn't tell you!"

Then we all walked out.

The end.

Anyway, what is the real law here, if any, concerning buying long guns outside of NYC with an NYC address?
 

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I think the point most stores/dealers have with denying NYC residents firearm purchases has to do with the assumption that you will be taking the rifle to your address in Queens, which would make it an illegally possessed firearm. Should you commit a crime with that weapon, it would be traced back to that dealer.
 

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I've had this argument with a few people. Essentially what the salespeople are saying is that because your residency is within the 5 boros of NYC, your ability to own a firearm everywhere else in the state is curtailed. This is absurd. You are still a citizen of NYS, and regardless of where you live, as long as you have not been convicted of a felony, been adjudicated as mentally insane or otherwise rendered unfit to possess a firearm, you have no restriction against owning, purchasing, firing, selling, disposing of, or just staring at a firearm.

IF YOU CHOOSE to break NYC law and take an unregistered firearm into the city limits, then all bets are off. But the gun dealer can't be responsible for your choices.

But why deal with a chain store anyway? Buy from a local dealer. Walmart or Sports Authority doesn't need your money. They have enough.

Keith
 

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I agree. The permit is to possess and purchase within the 5 boroughs. I picked up a 10/22 while I was in Michigan on my grandmother's farm at a major national retailer (not wal-mart) and can't wait to bring it home.
 

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Yes, to purchase or possess in NYC a permit is needed. I was not purchasing, nor possessing the rifle in NYC though.
I work for a FFL. The deal is they go by what it on your address. I can live in Africa but aslong as my NY state ID says i live in NY (not nyc) i can buy the gun. You can provide other information proving that you have a changed address. You can get a DMV change of address sticker, show a pistol permit or military ID with NEW address, or show other Government ID with new address on it.
 

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How does the permit work with a face to face transaction when the buyer is from Brooklyn and the seller (me) is upstate? Is it the sellers responsibility to make sure the buyer has that permit? I do have a Bill of Sale I use, that says both parties are legal to sell/buy the firearm and I attach copies of DL's of both buyer & seller, but I don't know if it covers my rear in regard to the permit, or lack thereof.

I have this situation happening now...The buyer informed me of the permit process, but by his words, it sounds like he hasn't done it yet, as this rifle would be his first since living there.

I am trying to figure out what to do. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
DW
 

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I would recommend calling the permit office and asking them. If you are selling it WITHIN the 5 boroughs, he definitely has to have the permit.
 

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That's what I was thinking. The guy is not very good in communicating and hasn't answered my questions about if he has the permit or not, or even his address so i can start filling out the bill of sale.

Think I am pulling the plug on this deal...to many unknowns on my end with the buyer not helping out much.

Thanks,
DW
 

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I've had this argument with a few people. Essentially what the salespeople are saying is that because your residency is within the 5 boros of NYC, your ability to own a firearm everywhere else in the state is curtailed. This is absurd. You are still a citizen of NYS, and regardless of where you live, as long as you have not been convicted of a felony, been adjudicated as mentally insane or otherwise rendered unfit to possess a firearm, you have no restriction against owning, purchasing, firing, selling, disposing of, or just staring at a firearm.

IF YOU CHOOSE to break NYC law and take an unregistered firearm into the city limits, then all bets are off. But the gun dealer can't be responsible for your choices.
This is true, NYC has no jurisdiction to enforce NYC laws outside of the confines of the City of NY. But good luck finding a dealer to sell you one with a NYC DL. This is especially true of the chain stores. I would suggest that a dealer can cover themselves by having the purchaser sign an affidavit that they understand the provisions of Local Law 78 and understand that they can not bring the gun into the city without the proper permit/registration. Alternatively, a FTF transaction would work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
But why deal with a chain store anyway? Buy from a local dealer. Walmart or Sports Authority doesn't need your money. They have enough.

Keith
You're right. I did purchase a similar rifle the next day from my local shop with no problems. It was a kind of spur of the moment purchase in the big box store.

I will never again waste my time in a big chain store if it is not necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Your local shop in the city? As a NYC resident how did you buy from a NYC dealer without a NYC rifle/shotgun permit?
haha, I should have been more specific. Local shop to my house in the Catskills. I spend so much time there it's hard to say where I reside.
 

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How does the permit work with a face to face transaction when the buyer is from Brooklyn and the seller (me) is upstate? Is it the sellers responsibility to make sure the buyer has that permit? I do have a Bill of Sale I use, that says both parties are legal to sell/buy the firearm and I attach copies of DL's of both buyer & seller, but I don't know if it covers my rear in regard to the permit, or lack thereof.

I have this situation happening now...The buyer informed me of the permit process, but by his words, it sounds like he hasn't done it yet, as this rifle would be his first since living there.

I am trying to figure out what to do. Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,
DW
If you're a rifle and shotgun permit holder (I am), and you acquire a longarm outside of the city, you have to register it within 72 hours of bringing it into NYC. The registration process involves filing a form with the Rifle and Shotgun Section of License Division. If you acquire it from a NYC dealer, they submit the registration paperwork for you. (The registration must be kept with you if you have the gun within the city--i.e. you bring it with you if you take the rifle to a range or gunsmith). If you don't have a permit, you have to apply for one and deposit the rifle with your local precinct (I think this is within 72 hours as well). And to repeat--there is nothing illegal at all about a NYC resident owning an otherwise NYS legal rifle or shotgun if it is not brought into the confines of the city.

Whatever you do, DO NOT DO THE FTF WITHIN NYC. A westchester teacher was arrested for making a FTF rifle transaction in the Bronx not too long ago.
 

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You do not need a NYC license to purchase or possess a rifle or shotgun outside the geographic confines of NYC.

But, I do not think it is unreasonable for a store to refuse to complete the sale on the ground that they don't want to take any unnecessary risks. Remember that NYPD went out to LI a few years ago and got names of NYC residents who had bought long guns, and then started knocking on doors.

Why don't you just get the NYC license?
 

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If you're a rifle and shotgun permit holder (I am), and you acquire a longarm outside of the city, you have to register it within 72 hours of bringing it into NYC. The registration process involves filing a form with the Rifle and Shotgun Section of License Division. If you acquire it from a NYC dealer, they submit the registration paperwork for you. (The registration must be kept with you if you have the gun within the city--i.e. you bring it with you if you take the rifle to a range or gunsmith). If you don't have a permit, you have to apply for one and deposit the rifle with your local precinct (I think this is within 72 hours as well). And to repeat--there is nothing illegal at all about a NYC resident owning an otherwise NYS legal rifle or shotgun if it is not brought into the confines of the city.

Whatever you do, DO NOT DO THE FTF WITHIN NYC. A westchester teacher was arrested for making a FTF rifle transaction in the Bronx not too long ago.
Thanks for the info. This FTF transaction would have happened either somewhere in the middle or in my neck of the woods...certainly not within NYC. As it turns out, I pulled the plug on the deal...I was uncomfortable with how things were going and as it turns out he didn't have his permit yet either.

DW
 

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Why don't you just get the NYC license?
Because he doesn't want to shell out $140 plus $94 and wait 6 months just for the permission to purchase a gun, and then pay an additional $140 every 3 years for renewal.

Just a suggestion, but the next lawsuit against the City challenging its exorbitant fees should feature plaintiffs who meet all other requirements for the handgun license or long gun permit but can't pay the fee. Find some law-abiding citizens on welfare and food stamps. I'm sure the NRA or SAF would donate a firearm or two for the cause (along with range membership and gift certificates for ammo), so the City can't say, "if they can't afford the fee, they can't afford to own a gun." The guns could even be stored at an out-of-state FFL, all ready to be shipped.

That would destroy Judge Koeltl's crazy argument in Kwong that there's no proof anyone has been harmed by the fees. I guess when you've been a corporate partner for almost 20 years and then a federal judge, $340 (or $140) doesn't seem like much. But for the rest of us, it's a different story.
 

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Thanks for the info. This FTF transaction would have happened either somewhere in the middle or in my neck of the woods...certainly not within NYC. As it turns out, I pulled the plug on the deal...I was uncomfortable with how things were going and as it turns out he didn't have his permit yet either.

DW
Smart move! I have bought and sold firearms and firearm products here and elsewhere. There are two red flags I put up immediately: NYC and CA. Stay far away from both. It is more of a CYOA (Cover Your Own @ss) issue than anything else.
 

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Because he doesn't want to shell out $140 plus $94 and wait 6 months just for the permission to purchase a gun, and then pay an additional $140 every 3 years for renewal.

Just a suggestion, but the next lawsuit against the City challenging its exorbitant fees should feature plaintiffs who meet all other requirements for the handgun license or long gun permit but can't pay the fee. Find some law-abiding citizens on welfare and food stamps. I'm sure the NRA or SAF would donate a firearm or two for the cause (along with range membership and gift certificates for ammo), so the City can't say, "if they can't afford the fee, they can't afford to own a gun." The guns could even be stored at an out-of-state FFL, all ready to be shipped.

That would destroy Judge Koeltl's crazy argument in Kwong that there's no proof anyone has been harmed by the fees. I guess when you've been a corporate partner for almost 20 years and then a federal judge, $340 (or $140) doesn't seem like much. But for the rest of us, it's a different story.
Well, OK, touche on not wanting to pay the fee . . . I guess my thought is that whether the fee is reasonable or not, I'd just go ahead and pay it for now. (Hey, I like my guns.) Now as to your suggestion -- what I will tell you is that we purposefully did not raise this issue in the Kwong case. The issue of indigency -- whether the government needs to waive fees for people who can't afford to pay them -- really is a separate issue. It is true that Judge Koeltl's opinion basically leaves that issue open, but at the end of the day I think everyone wants to see a somewhat different approach than Judge Koeltl took in the first place.
 
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