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Anyone carry on school grounds off-duty?

21K views 162 replies 29 participants last post by  ECU Pirates 
#1 ·
I work in LE and carry off-duty. Unless things have changed, we cannot carry off-duty on school grounds. Some of my co-workers go under the guidance "that no one will know, and if a situation arises, they will be happy I had my gun".

Thoughts? To me, it is flat out illegal unless on-duty and sanctioned by our commissioner.

It would make things much easier to pick up my kids at school in uniform if we could.
 
#2 ·
Being a CJ student and previously completing a lot of work with LEO's in my area... the common response whenever I asked a question about doing something "off-duty" was that LEO's are never "off-duty." With that said, I didn't ask if they carry at schools, but all carry in court, even if they are "off-duty."

I'm not sure what the law actually states regarding carrying at a school...
 
#3 ·
Respectfully, if something happened at a school where you needed your gun and did not have it, and got out without harm, I would be 1st in line to kick you in the junk. :)

Police officers are exempt from that state law (and federal law) - unless something changed since I last consulted Westlaw.. Ok, off to find the specific statute.

LHT
 
#4 ·
If I was you, I would check with your chain of command. If they think you are ok, then great, if not you could be in a world of **** . It could mean your job due to the ignorance of others if you know what I mean. I am not a LEO but even LEOs are getting problems lately, just look at the California Sheriff not passing a background check, there are limits. I know how hard it is to pass one of the civil service test to be a cop and just getting the job, so check with your command. You don't want to risk your job and the hassle you went thru for asking a question that is completely honest. Just my two cents!
 
#5 ·
Police Officers and armed Peace Officers are exempt. There is no such thing as "off duty". In NYS we have "Geographic Area of Employment (GAOE) and "Pursuant to his Special Duties".
There is not a legal definition of "off duty" that I am aware of, and I did 30 years.
The above things relate to powers of arrest without a warrant, NOT firearms.
The LEO exemptions in the Penal Law do NOT reference "on duty".
 
#10 ·
Police Officers and armed Peace Officers are exempt...
I thought that ARMED Peace Officers were also exempt, but wasn't sure about that.

Are security guards at nuke plants in NY peace officers, or armed security guards?

I am surprised newguyhere's dept does not cover this. What if he ends up working a detail as a SRO, or happens to be on duty at a school? I know the on duty/uniform vs off duty/plain clothes thing has been drilled into everyone's head by now.

LHT.
 
#7 ·
And there have been some threads here about the Federal "gun free school zones".
Suffice it to say, the FBI is NOT coming to arrest an off duty NYPD Detective picking his kids up from school or attending a parent-teacher conference.
HOWEVER,
The NYPD COMMISSIONER needs a letter of permission to enter school grounds carrying on his PERMIT since he is a civilian. Although, it is generally considered bad form to arrest your boss LOL.
 
#11 ·
The SAFE act is illegal all together because it negates parents who are CCW holders (Always off duty) to pick up their kids at school and therefore
forcing them to take alternative actions that might otherwise not be necessary. CCW holders have past all the background checks, legally
bought their pistols, some might be retired military, LE, etc.., some have a lot more training than the police with their firearms should they ever be needed. So are we really protecting our children or actually put them at risk?
This is no joke. Right now there is nobody effectively defending my kids in their school. The gun free zone sign is a joke.
I think the SAFE act is criminal.
 
#15 ·
So being an armed Peace Officer makes me exempt? In my dept at our last training day last year, it was never cleared up. I can make warrantless arrests, and live and work in my jurisdiction. So I am good? I guess I could also stop off at my local PD and ask.

I will pass on a kick in the nuts even though I am long done having kids!
 
#17 ·
No way. This was enhanced by the SAFE act but someone had to put it there first time after the american revolution and the constitution.
You see something that never effectively stopped anyone (and it never will) had to be enhanced for what?
We all are seen as unconvicted felons under the SAFE act no matter what we do.

One thing I want to know is, who is going to effectively protect my children. Right now nobody is.
 
#19 ·
I was told in the permit class by the LEO teaching it that it was against the law for him to carry on school grounds while not working.
 
#46 ·
no true. We Are technically never off duty in the state of ny hence how the department can regulate our "off duty " behavior. When the Safe act was passed it did not contain any exemption for on or off duty police officrr's to armed on school grounds without written permission for any reason. The safe act revisions added it back in. If an FBI agent was to try to enforce the federal gun free school zone act and not recognize the "official" duties exemption for the NYPD, then they better start with themselves. The law exemption covers them too. They are never " off duty" either.
 
#29 ·
All of the current "active shooter" drills in the local schools emphasize speed of response. If I'm at a Varsity Basketball game when the next Klebold decides to kill, am I supposed to go home and get my duty gear or wait for the responding road patrol that's 20 minutes away?

Nope. I couldn't live with myself if my 20 years of experience as an officer and firearms instructor was pissed away by political correctness run amok.
 
#36 ·
All of the current "active shooter" drills in the local schools emphasize speed of response. If I'm at a Varsity Basketball game when the next Klebold decides to kill, am I supposed to go home and get my duty gear or wait for the responding road patrol that's 20 minutes away?

Nope. I couldn't live with myself if my 20 years of experience as an officer and firearms instructor was pissed away by political correctness run amok.
And there are many who walk among us who are likewise trained and prepared to place their life on the line, to stave off a madman in the goal of saving other innocent lives. Problem is, they are not cops and are more hamstrung than you. How would you feel if you were a responding officer, got hit, taken out of the fight, and the only person between you and execution by a madman had to leave his gun at home? Even if they are not trained, many parents would put their own lives at peril to save their child - or any innocent child.

It is more than PC. It is a bare-faced attempt by our own governments to control all of our lives.

I thank you for putting in a lifetime in a mostly thankless calling.

LHT.
 
#30 ·
Us second class citizens should consider ourselves lucky we can even have firearms for self defense and a whole 7 rounds.
 
#32 ·
Is this correct?
Fix The Gun Free School Zone Act | Practical Tactical Training LLC

First, it's nearly impossible to drive through any urban or suburban area without passing through several of these zones.
Second, there is no exception if a gun is discharged in self-defense, even for those with carry permits or for off-duty law enforcement. If a police officer calls 10-7 in on the radio and is attacked seconds later by a criminal within 1000 feet of a school, he is subject to a federal felony charge. A citizen with a carry permit could shoot Satan himself near a school and become a felon for it.
 
#35 ·
Is this correct?
Fix The Gun Free School Zone Act | Practical Tactical Training LLC

First, it's nearly impossible to drive through any urban or suburban area without passing through several of these zones.
Second, there is no exception if a gun is discharged in self-defense, even for those with carry permits or for off-duty law enforcement. If a police officer calls 10-7 in on the radio and is attacked seconds later by a criminal within 1000 feet of a school, he is subject to a federal felony charge. A citizen with a carry permit could shoot Satan himself near a school and become a felon for it.
NO off duty LEO is being arrested for that. NO permit holder is being arrested for driving by. Who is going to arrest you? The FBI? By what authority are they going to do roadblocks and search cars?
And I live way less than 1000 feet from a school.
 
#40 ·
All you LEO's admitting to breaking federal law should be ashamed of yourselves!

Penalty 18 U.S.C. § 924(a)(4) establishes the penalty for violating GFSZA:
Whoever violates the Act shall be fined not more than $5,000, imprisoned for not more than 5 years, or both. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the term of imprisonment imposed under this paragraph shall not run concurrently with any other term of imprisonment imposed under any other provision of law. Note: A conviction under the GFSZA will cause an individual to become a "prohibited person" under the Gun Control Act of 1968. This will bar them from legally owning firearms for the rest of their life.

Not worth the risk! As we all know this is a BS law. I wonder if it's ever been enforced when dealing with a legal gun owner (leo or otherwise).
 
#43 ·
GFSA doesn't exempt police, except in the performance of their duties. It does exempt state permit holders. State law does not exempt permit holders from the school law, but does exempt police (except out-of-state officers, who must be in performance of duties as well). Therefore to be fully legal under state and federal law, an off-duty NY police officer should have a state permit. Out of state officers are outta luck (if I recall correctly, this is contained in the definitions section).

One could play games with the term 'performance of their duties' or acknowledge that there's no way an officer would get arrested for it, of course...
 
#49 ·
GFSA doesn't exempt police, except in the performance of their duties. It does exempt state permit holders. State law does not exempt permit holders from the school law, but does exempt police (except out-of-state officers, who must be in performance of duties as well). Therefore to be fully legal under state and federal law, an off-duty NY police officer should have a state permit. Out of state officers are outta luck (if I recall correctly, this is contained in the definitions section).

One could play games with the term 'performance of their duties' or acknowledge that there's no way an officer would get arrested for it, of course...
the language of the law says acting in his "official capacity". That's the exception that covers us. You have the ability to carry in NYS on your official capacity as an LEO unless you have a permit. And scosgt is right as one legal person said what is the definition of a license in this case. The judge can say that "the badge" is a license especially if that department is the lic authority
 
#45 ·
Actually, the entire discussion is really academic because a Federal Judge would simply rule that a Police Officers shield IS his PERMIT for the purposes of the Act. The Intent of Congress is clear - HR 218 shows that Congress does not intend for Police Officers to have less powers than a private citizen with a permit.
 
#52 ·
Is it against federal law for off duty LEO's to carry at schools? I'm not asking if the law will be enforced or not, but as it is written is it legal or not? I don't think the "never off duty" idea is correct. If a LEO is drunk at a bar is he still on duty?
 
#53 ·
Is it against federal law for off duty LEO's to carry at schools? I'm not asking if the law will be enforced or not, but as it is written is it legal or not?
I believe it is NOT illegal under the Federal Law, because the badge and ID serve as the "pistol permit".
And
Because there is no such thing as "off duty" in New York law.

And good luck trying to sell that one to a Jury. I mean, off duty cop goes onto grounds and shoots wife who is a teacher, sure they would possibly hit him with that.

Cop on the way to work stops off to watch his son play Little League Baseball. Not happening.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Not in NY, but the last line should apply for any legal permit holder or LEO.

STOW, Ohio - In an effort to create another layer of school security, the Stow-Munroe Falls School District is allowing off-duty or retired police officers to carry concealed weapons on school grounds during after-hours events.
Superintendent Russ Jones said the measure, approved unanimously by the board last week, was a "no-brainer" and could be a deterrent to violence.
"If somebody wants to create an emergency situation at an event in the evening, they don't know if there's a retired officer there or an off-duty officer there who might be able to stop them," Jones said.
Stow Police Chief Louis Dirker said schools are gun-free zones except for on-duty officers. He pushed the school board for change when he learned Ohio law doesn't allow off-duty officers to carry their weapons into schools without board approval.

"Us not being able to carry weapons all the time is alarming to us for self-protection and the protection of the citizens," Dirker said.

Also this:

Although LEOSA preempts state and local laws, there are two notable exceptions: "the laws of any State that (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property" (such as a bars, private clubs, amusement parks, etc.), or "(2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park" [SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][4][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP][SUP][6][/SUP] Additionally, LEOSA does not override the federal Gun-Free School Zone Act (GFSZA) which prohibits carrying a firearm within 1,000 feet of elementary or secondary schools. Although the GFSZA authorizes on-duty law enforcement officers to carry firearms in such circumstances, off-duty and retired law enforcement officers are still restricted from doing so unless they have a firearms license issued from the state in which they reside and then it is only good for the state in which they reside.[SUP][7][/SUP] Individuals must also obey any federal laws and federal agency policies that restrict the carrying of concealed firearms in certain federal buildings and lands, as well as federal regulations prohibiting the carriage of firearms on airplanes.[SUP][6][/SUP]

I read Harry Reid was trying to make it legal for off duty leo's to carry on air planes. Anyone know what happened with that?
 
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