Complete Uppers and kits

[zeeto]

I'm about to order my upper for an AR15 I'm going to be putting together, and being my relative noob-ity with them I'm trying to get some feedback on kits.

I had planned on doing an model1supply/sales complete upper, until I looked around more and found their kits. I also was going through one of the threads here and someone mentioned the RGuns upper they bought. I also read of someone mentioning a Double Star kit.

I guess one of my first questions is if anybody has experience quality-wise with how those "kits" are? I can, and have, read until my eyes cross, on other sites, but seem to see some who don't like the stuff and others who do. I originally planned to piece together the whole thing, but with it being my first "build" I figured this might be a better way and then I can just upgrade what I want as time goes by. I think part of the problem is just the lack of parts I'm able to actually get my hands on and see/feel. My "plan" is to be somewhere around $700 at the end...

If it makes any difference, I was planning to use a Mega lower. That's pretty much the only thing I have decided on

[bpipe95]

Piece of advice, buy Name brand stuff. You will get what you pay for 99% of the time, and personaly some of this ultra low dollar stuff you see make me very cautious.

You are not only paying for the product but also the service you get if/when you have a problem.

[mowow21]

bpipe95 is speakin the truth, it may cost a little more, but its all about the service and the product as one, you get what you pay for ya know :-)

[mowow21]

and Mega lowers are solid. I have a red river tactical lower, which is made by mega...its a beautiful piece of metal!

[av8r]

Do you guys have anything specific to back up the idea that the stuff he mentioned is actually poor quality or are you just assuming that because it's less expensive that there is something wrong with it?

[mowow21]

I know somebody had trouble with some Model 1 kits. Something about the gas tube working loose. idk though

[bpipe95]

Originally Posted by av8r

Do you guys have anything specific to back up the idea that the stuff he mentioned is actually poor quality or are you just assuming that because it's less expensive that there is something wrong with it?

When you sell stuff with such a low price, you have NO margin, no margin means corners will get cut somewhere. It could be fitment and finish, it could be tolerances, or it could be service. I for one do not wanna find out.

Also who knows where the parts come from. The uppers are pretty much all "no name" and could very well be from china as well as several other parts, the QC and metallurgy on parts from over there is anyone's guess.

With Name brand US made uppers being available starting in the low 400's why not buy a name brand, that not only will provide you with a quality product but also recourse of you do have a problem in the future.

keep in mind of what is going on inside of that upper every time you pull that trigger, it is containing some serious forces next to your face. Do you wanna find out how good Chinese metal is?

[av8r]

So no facts then...just speculation.

I'd look on a forum dedicated to the AR platform...there are only about 1000 of them out there! You'll find people who have used these components and can speak from experience. Then you'll have the correct information to make an educated decision.

Originally Posted by bpipe95

When you sell stuff with such a low price, you have NO margin, no margin means corners will get cut somewhere. It could be fitment and finish, it could be tolerances, or it could be service. I for one do not wanna find out.

Also who knows where the parts come from. The uppers are pretty much all "no name" and could very well be from china as well as several other parts, the QC and metallurgy on parts from over there is anyone's guess.

With Name brand US made uppers being available starting in the low 400's why not buy a name brand, that not only will provide you with a quality product but also recourse of you do have a problem in the future.

keep in mind of what is going on inside of that upper every time you pull that trigger, it is containing some serious forces next to your face. Do you wanna find out how good Chinese metal is?

[zeeto]

Originally Posted by bpipe95

With Name brand US made uppers being available starting in the low 400's why not buy a name brand, that not only will provide you with a quality product but also recourse of you do have a problem in the future.

Guess I don't totally follow you there. The upper I was thinking of originally from m1s was in the low 400s, as was the one from rguns. After looking around at prices those seem to be lower cost than most everything...

Originally Posted by av8r

I'd look on a forum dedicated to the AR platform...there are only about 1000 of them out there! You'll find people who have used these components and can speak from experience. Then you'll have the correct information to make an educated decision.

Those were the places that were making my eyes cross I'll have to go threw it again, because it's hard to decipher who is speaking from experience and who isn't...

[bpipe95]

Originally Posted by av8r

So no facts then...just speculation.

I'd look on a forum dedicated to the AR platform...there are only about 1000 of them out there! You'll find people who have used these components and can speak from experience. Then you'll have the correct information to make an educated decision.

I have found where Rguns cuts corners all that took was a simple Google search. The customer service leaves a lot to be desired not to mentiont he case where the gun was sold as another higher model to a customer then compensation was refused.

As for model one I have only handled a couple and fitment was poor. An accuwedge will help fitment in some areas but not all.

And to the OP you can find brand name uppers like stag uppers in the $400's and going up to $500 will open even more doors to quality product.

Buy once cry once, seems to be a very popular motto in the gun world.

This is my personal experience, so take it however you like.

[av8r]

Originally Posted by zeeto

Guess I don't totally follow you there. The upper I was thinking of originally from m1s was in the low 400s, as was the one from rguns. After looking around at prices those seem to be lower cost than most everything...

Those were the places that were making my eyes cross I'll have to go threw it again, because it's hard to decipher who is speaking from experience and who isn't...

I quickly found a few threads discussing Model 1 and they were overwhelming good. Most people reported 2-3 MOA accuracy with iron sights, reliable feed and fire. I just looked at about 20 different offerings on their website and all had a "ALL PARTS MADE IN US" logo.

There is a guy in this thread claiming to have built 35 kits using Model 1 kits....plenty of others saying they liked what they got too..

"Model 1 Sales" AR Kit Question

Looks like our own Darkvibe is a fanboy
http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...32-post11.html

another
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Mod...es-t53210.html

It's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff on a forum as there are many "experts" that have no experience with the specific thing you're asking about. You'll get responses, but often what you get is an opinion based on nothing more than what that person heard on another forum or through a friend who may not have had any experience with the item either. Have fun with it...sounds like Model 1 is a fine choice.

[Phlyan Pan]

I had a poor experience with Model 1. It was all on the customer service side of things. I've never bought a whole kit though, just some parts and tools. Once I finally did receive the parts, I haven't noticed any issues with them, but I certainly won't buy from them again.

[roch]

I can not comment on the fit and finish of Model 1, but I have heard the wait time for their rifles are extremly long.

[av8r]

Originally Posted by roch

I can not comment on the fit and finish of Model 1, but I have heard the wait time for their rifles are extremly long.

I just called them. The woman said kits and uppers are running about 12 weeks. I don't know if that is long or not.

[roch]

Originally Posted by av8r

I just called them. The woman said kits and uppers are running about 12 weeks. I don't know if that is long or not.

Not at all, thats weird, I have a friend going on almost 6 months now without anything.

[av8r]

Originally Posted by roch

Not at all, thats weird, I have a friend going on almost 6 months now without anything.

Maybe they're just telling me that? Has he called them? Did he order something out of the ordinary?

[roch]

Yeah, he called and was told due to the high volume of orders blah, blah, blah. From what I remember it was a standard 16" AR.

[av8r]

Originally Posted by roch

Yeah, he called and was told due to the high volume of orders blah, blah, blah. From what I remember it was a standard 16" AR.

I did read older posts that said direct orders were slow back in Q1/Q2 2009, but then read some others stating that people were getting stuff in 2 weeks back in August. I guess it's a family owned business so that should tell you something.

[FrankRochester]

Let's see...Model 1
16'' AR15 C.A.R. Upper Half, 5.56 NATO, chrome lined chamber & bore, 1-9 twist, A2 flashider; A3 upper; Front sight base w/std front sight; C.A.R. handguard; Bolt carrier group & std charging handle, $120.00 option $485 total.. Keep in mind this: barrel steel is not mil-spec, twist is not mil-spec, is it really a true 5.56 NATO chamber? And there are no M4 feedramps. The front sight is not "F" marked for the taller height of the A3 rail, this means you will have to crank out the elevation in order to get it zero'd. Bolt carrier group is not mil-spec. And I'm sure the gas port on the barrel is not made to spec either.

The best choice for the money:
Bravo Company USA 16" M4 complete upper. Mil-Spec barrel steel, Chrome lined, 1-7" twist, proper "F" marked front sight, M4 feedramps, proper 5.56 NATO chamber. $425 add MIL-spec M16 bolt carrier group and charging handle $145, MagPul enhanced carbine handguard $28.50(can put rails on it for a light or laser) for a total of:$598.50

So for only $100 more, you actually get a real M-4 upper. One made to military specs. The price difference is so marginal, why wouldn't you? Why would you even consider Stag Arms, Rock River, or any of the 2nd tier manufacturers? Let alone a 3rd teir manufacturer like Model 1? Get the BCM on order and have Allstar pin and weld a PWS brake on that bad boy.. Grab a MagPul MBUS rear sight while your at it, they're cheap enough...

[av8r]

Originally Posted by FrankRochester

: barrel steel is not mil-spec, twist is not mil-spec, is it really a true 5.56 NATO chamber?
.

Military/government contracts are awarded to the least cost bidder. We all know what that means.

Are you speaking from a position of knowledge or speculation when you say that all these components are not "mil-spec"? Can you cite the spec or contract that holds the specifications? I'd love to know the difference.

[FrankRochester]

Originally Posted by av8r

Military/government contracts are awarded to the least cost bidder. We all know what that means.

Are you speaking from a position of knowledge or speculation when you say that all these components are not "mil-spec"? Can you cite the spec or contract that holds the specifications? I'd love to know the difference.

Here we go again... Mil-spec is a standard. Plain and simple. And no, they are not Mil-Spec. Because you can do your own research for yourself to find out what it is. I've already explained some of the specs. And also showed what isn't spec on the Model 1 Upper. I'm not going to rehash it again. When you get the information, you can then call that company and find out what they use. And it will not be Mil-Spec. When you buy cheap, you get cheap. Will it work? More than likely for target shooting and screwing around. But it is not a rifle that you should bet your life on. And when you can get a 10x better product for only 100 bucks more, why wouldn't you? If you are concerned about 100 bucks then you probably shouldn't be in the market for a rifle in the first place. I'm not gonna get into another argument with the my Olympic, Model 1, Bushmaster, etc is just as good as Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, BCM, Noveske group.. The fact of the matter is that the price difference is nothing for a far superior product.

[FrankRochester]

As a matter of fact, here is some information for you. Written by a guy Rob S. over at the M4carbine.net forum. This will give you the information you need to know about the M4 TDP.

M4 CHART

[av8r]

Originally Posted by FrankRochester

Here we go again... Mil-spec is a standard. Plain and simple. And no, they are not Mil-Spec. Because you can do your own research for yourself to find out what it is. I've already explained some of the specs. And also showed what isn't spec on the Model 1 Upper. I'm not going to rehash it again. When you get the information, you can then call that company and find out what they use. And it will not be Mil-Spec. When you buy cheap, you get cheap. Will it work? More than likely for target shooting and screwing around. But it is not a rifle that you should bet your life on. And when you can get a 10x better product for only 100 bucks more, why wouldn't you? If you are concerned about 100 bucks then you probably shouldn't be in the market for a rifle in the first place. I'm not gonna get into another argument with the my Olympic, Model 1, Bushmaster, etc is just as good as Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense, BCM, Noveske group.. The fact of the matter is that the price difference is nothing for a far superior product.

No offense, but stating that something is better doesn't make it so. If both rifles function, are reliable and accurate as all reports seem to attest, then I fail to see how one is "10X" better. It's purely opinion.

The proof is in the pudding, as it is said. With today's technology I'd argue that nearly any rifle, assembled correctly, would provide service equal to or better than any rifle made to a "mil-spec". If there were differences they would be lost on 99.9% of the shooting public.

[Allstar Tactical]

zeeto -

We have plenty of uppers in stock and ready to go (no waiting 12 weeks or the like) and can pin/weld the brake of your choice on them. Currently we have CMMG, Stag, and RRA uppers in stock. We can also order anything you like and they will usually come pretty quick, depending on the company. I believe the Stag arms is under 500, and the others are all right around 550, but I'm not in front of my pricing.

Margins are low as it is on uppers, but personally I'd rather build a quality product instead of cutting corners. Not because I'm trying to get a sale, but because there are noticeable differences in quality.

Give me a call and I'd be glad to chat with you about them or stop by the shop on saturday at our showroom grand opening.

Good Luck with the search

[FrankRochester]

Originally Posted by av8r

No offense, but stating that something is better doesn't make it so. If both rifles function, are reliable and accurate as all reports seem to attest, then I fail to see how one is "10X" better. It's purely opinion.

The proof is in the pudding, as it is said. With today's technology I'd argue that nearly any rifle, assembled correctly, would provide service equal to or better than any rifle made to a "mil-spec". If there were differences they would be lost on 99.9% of the shooting public.

Ok, once again... go look at the information I posted. I am not just saying something is better. The hard facts are on that link I posted. The whole point of my post is that NOT ALL RIFLES ARE MADE CORRECTLY! But you are correct about many things being lost to the majority of the shooting public. Most people buy STAG Arms, RRA, Bushmaster, whatever because they spend thousands of dollars on ads. Does that make them better because some gunwriter was paid to make a stellar review? Look, all my point is that the prices are virtually the same. And with Colt. Lewis Machine and Tool, Daniel Defense, Noveske, BCM you are getting a known product made to a known set of specs. That has been been developed over the last 50 years and been proven to work. But for the majority of owners who are just concerned with looking cool, and having something to screw around with. They wouldn't know the difference. Because over the long term, they don't shoot their rifles enough to have parts break on them. But as I said before, for approx $100 difference why not get the better product? Over your lifetime it adds up to pennies. And you know that if the shit hits the fan that it will work with whatever ammo or conditions its put in.. And Allstar can get these uppers I just named in no time at all and get all the machine work done in one turnkey operation. Just my opinion.