Complete Uppers and kits

[zeeto]

Thanks for gathering that info av8r, I appreciate it. I also appreciate that info on lead time you got from m1s, after calling them. That in itself will probably cause me to look elsewhere. If I end up taking a few more weeks, or a month to decide what to pick up, I'd be looking at it showing up around the beginning of June.

After reading through some of the links last night, I'm not planning on picking up a full kit from anyone. Most of the complaints about them were that the uppers were nice, but the remaining pieces were cheap. So I'm back to piecing together everything for the lower, and just picking up a complete upper. Of course I will probably change my mind again, and just build an upper too

Originally Posted by Allstar Tactical

Give me a call and I'd be glad to chat with you about them or stop by the shop on saturday at our showroom grand opening.
Good Luck with the search

Thanks Allstar, I'll probably give you a call or send an im on here, after driving to 2 gun shows this past weekend, and finding absolutely nothing I was looking for, I'm staying home this weekend.

FrankRochestr, thanks for the info. I understand what you mentioned throughout you posts. I build rockrawlers/racers and understand the whole quality/price comparison. I also understand that I could keep saying it's only another $100, 6-7 more times and end up with a $1300 upper (My wife has heard that argument many times with my buggy ), or that just because it's new doesn't make it bad. I will look into those other mfg's you mentioned, if the price difference is really that marginal.

[Allstar Graphics]

pre-obama i bought a m1s kit and built it on a dpms lower and i admit that it is one of the best ar's i have ever owned. The thing is a work horse and i have put it to some pretty good tests.

[FrankRochester]

Originally Posted by zeeto

FrankRochestr, thanks for the info. I understand what you mentioned throughout you posts. I build rockrawlers/racers and understand the whole quality/price comparison. I also understand that I could keep saying it's only another $100, 6-7 more times and end up with a $1300 upper (My wife has heard that argument many times with my buggy ), or that just because it's new doesn't make it bad. I will look into those other mfg's you mentioned, if the price difference is really that marginal.

As far as the BCM, LMT, D-D products, it really isn't that big a price difference from the other makers. Noveske is more expensive, but he takes his barrel making to a whole different level. You are basically paying for a barrel that goes above and beyond mil-spec. Hammer forged, and double chrome lined( made to M249 SAW machine gun barrel specs). And will still shoot sub-moa if you do your part. His stainless barrels are the gold standard for accuracy and reliability with all ammo types. Some may be slightly more accurate, but none are more reliable for hard use. For the money the BCM, LMT, and Daniel Defense units are the best bang for the buck. All are around the same price point. Right there with some of the Tier 2 manufacturers but better quality. My good friend runs a D-D rifle and its the nicest AR I've ever shot. Their quad rails are a work of art. I'm a machinist by trade so I know good machine work when I see it. D-D is now selling their uppers with hammer forged barrels. Which is a slight plus, its supposed to give a little more life to the barrel. All depends on how hard you use your rifle. Is it worth the $100 more? Not sure. For most, standard cut rifled barrels out of Mil-spec steel and chrome lined are probably fine. Allstar is a dealer for D-D, LMT, and I'm sure he can get BCM for you. And do the brake pin and weld for you. Mike am I right?

[zeeto]

Originally Posted by FrankRochester

As far as the BCM, LMT, D-D products, it really isn't that big a price difference from the other makers.

So when you're comparing these to, what you consider, lesser quality; what components make these better? Or is it just the whole package? Say I were to piece together an upper instead of buying complete, is it the barrel that seperates these makes from the others? Or is it a combination of barrel/upper reciever/bolt assem?

[FrankRochester]

Originally Posted by zeeto

So when you're comparing these to, what you consider, lesser quality; what components make these better? Or is it just the whole package? Say I were to piece together an upper instead of buying complete, is it the barrel that seperates these makes from the others? Or is it a combination of barrel/upper reciever/bolt assem?

That's a great question. I'll explain further about the differences. And keep in mind, most manufacturers make stuff that functions for the majority of people. Most people just don't shoot their rifles very often or use them very hard. In other words, safe queens.

Ok.. with regards to quality differences. It really is the sum of all its parts. When talking about mil-specs. The military / Colt/ FN has gone through extensive testing to see what materials and processes are the best for that particular parts purpose. For instance, a Mil-spec bolt is required to be made from a type of Carpenter(?) steel alloy. It is then shot peened to help reduce metal fatigue. Then it is proof fired and then magnetic particle tested for any microscopic cracks or flaws. When you buy a Mil-spec bolt, that means this process has been done to every bolt. Many lower tier manufacturers only batch test them. With the M4 gas system, the operating pressures are like 3x higher compared to the M16's 20" barrel and longer gas system. This puts alot of stress on the bolt. Wouldn't you want to know that the bolt you put in has been fully inspected?

As far as barrels... if it is made to mil-spec's you know you are getting a very controlled, consistent steel. The proper 5.56 NATO chamber is another very important thing. Lots of places claim to chamber for 5.56 but in reality, it isn't NATO spec. .223 remington and 5.56 x 45 are not interchangeable. You can fire .223 in a 5.56 chamber but not the other way around. There are other reasons besides the chambering difference that you shouldn't do this. 5.56 x 45 is higher pressure, most lower tier manufacturers cut thier gas port oversize so their rifle will function with the lower powered .223 rounds. So when you run 5.56mm in it, the increased pressure pounds on your reciever because its working harder.

They also use the lighter weight AR-15 bolt carrier and CAR buffer which can make the problem worse. A M16 bolt carrier made to the proper specs should be used along with the proper weight buffer(CAR buffers are too light). This gives the system the proper weight(inertia) to maintain the proper cycling rate. A properly staked gas key is vital as well. If it isn't, the gas key screws can vibrate loose under heavy usage and cause a poor gas seal. Then your rifle will start short stroking because its not getting the proper gas pressure. This could be your death in a life threatening situation.

Anyways, gotta get back to work. Let me know if you have any other questions..