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Thread: Revised Permit Map

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    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    Default Revised Permit Map

    EDITED/UPDATED: 07 January 2011


    This map shows our understanding of current issuance policies for "full carry" handgun licenses througout the state. If you can provide additonal or updated information regarding issuance policies in a county, please do so!

    Under our rationale, a jurisdiction is "green" if it will (as a general proposition) issue full carry licenses to qualified private citizens. A county that requires applicants to hold restricted licenses for a period of time, to complete a training course, and/or to specifically ask for a license to carry is green if it will generally issue full carry licenses to individuals who meet the requirements.

    In "yellow" counties private citizens have some reasonable chance of obtaining a full carry license, but a qualified private citizen has no reasonable assurance that he or she will be able to obtain such a license. The relative difficulty of obtaining a license varies widely among the yellow counties. In many counties it is simply a matter of which judge is assigned to review one's application.

    "Red" juridictions generally presume that private citizens do not have "proper cause" within the meaning of the Penal Law. It is highly unlikely that a red jurisdiction will issue a full carry license to a private citizen. "Don't bother applying."

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    Original Post Follows:



    I updated the pistol license map. A "green" county will generally issue unrestricted licenses to private citizens, but applicants may be required to meet conditions, such as holding a restricted license for a period of time, completing training, and/or providing some reasonable explanation of need.

    A "yellow" county issues restricted licenses to private citizens, but private citizens may be able to demonstrate proper cause and obtain full carry licenses. A private citizen applicant has some reasonable chance of obtaining an unrestricted license if he or she is diligent and persistent.

    A "red" county generally presumes that private citizens do not have proper cause. A private citizen is highly unlikely to obtain an unrestricted license.

    The colors are not meant to represent the "ease" of obtaining a pistol license (restricted or unrestricted) or the speed at which applications or amendments are processed. The colors only represent the counties' general policies for determining whether private citizen applicants have "proper cause" for unrestricted licenses.

    Someone had suggested hot-linking this to the county-by-county list of requirements, and I think that would be a good idea.

    EDIT: Updated map below...
    Last edited by Tim1; 01-07-2011 at 11:36 PM. Reason: Add updated map to orignal post
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  3. #2
    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    I updated this based on some information posted on USACarry ...

    I changed Rensselaer from Green to Yellow.

    I changed St. Lawrence from Green to Yellow.

    I made Warren Yellow.

    Should Genessee be Red or Yellow?

    Any comments -- are these good changes?

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    Colonel Tim1's Avatar
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    Genesse is listed in my Looseleaf book with the following comment: 'Licenses are generally issued for "hunting, target shooting & collecting." A license for "personal protection" or "employment' purposes requires additional justification.' Yellow is probably right for them unless anybody here can say that they just plain refuse to issue unrestricted.

    Going from the same book, Warren might deserve to be red. "Pistol licenses are normally restricted to 'hunting and target shooting' or 'employment.' A license for self protection is not issued."

    Some other ones you might want to add, again using the Looseleaf publication as my reference:

    • Orleans should be green: "Licenses are generally unrestricted based on judge's approval."
    • Cattaragus should be green: "Carry and Conceal Permit - No Restrictions"
    • Schuyler should probably be green: "Although licenses are not generally restricted, licenses for self protection require additional justification."
    • Hamilton should be green: "Licenses are not generally restricted."
    • Essex should be green: "Licenses are not generally restricted, however licenses are not issued specifically for 'self protection.'"
    • Fulton should be yellow or perhaps even red, depending on what the locals say: "Licenses are usually restricted."
    • Greene should be yellow or perhaps even red, depending on what the locals say: "Licenses are generally restricted to 'sports use only.'"
    • Ditto for Montgomery: "Licenses are generally restricted to 'hunting, target shooting and collecting.' A license for 'personal protection' or 'employment purposes' requires additional justification."
    • Washington should be yellow: "Pistol licenses are normally restricted to 'hunting and target shooting' or 'employment.' A license for self protection can be issued with justification."

    I didn't review any of the other counties we already have against this book. If you'd like I can do that at some point. It's current enough to note that Broome will issue a unrestricted ("If Safety Course, suggested by current judge, is taken, a full carry permit may be issued with approval by said judge.") but says that Chenango won't do the same ("Licenses are generally restricted to 'hunting, target shooting, collecting'"). Perhaps the update for next year will properly reflect Chenago County and any other changes that have occured recently.
    Last edited by Tim1; 01-09-2010 at 03:11 PM. Reason: typo corrections
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    awesome for hire. mikeCentola's Avatar
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    Good Stuff!

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    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    I updated the map -- thanks for that info. OK I am definitely gonna get that book finally...

    Do we have any info for Herkimer?

    Also -- the map still uses some of the coding from packing.org. Those are the "off" colors. At this point I am inclined to get rid of the "off" colors and just use the 3 regular colors. In other words, if no one has objected to the packing.org info at this point, then we'll assume it's still accurate.

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    I'm curious what the book says about Putnam...

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    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    When I first posted this map someone respnded and said that Herkimer is restricted only. Not sure if that is yellow (you might be able to overcome restrictions) or red (no way unless you're an anti-gun politician) but let's call it yellow for now.

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    There are a lot more green counties than I expected.
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    Here's a second version that has "combined" the packing.org info with the new info we obtained. I am saving the map that separates out the packing.org info separately (it's still linked at the top of this post).

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    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkvibe View Post
    There are a lot more green counties than I expected.
    I think that may be in part because a county that requires training or a probationary period with a restricted license is green on our map. A lot of people would say that green is only a county that issues a full carry for the asking without any other requirements.

    I actually had a different observation, due in part to the fact that I am on the opposite end of the state. We have lost a lot of counties in the Hudson Valley of recent. 3 years ago Orange and Ulster were green. I think Greene was, too. What I actually thought was, "we really need to put up a fence at the Westchester border..." Haha

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    Major fastk9dad's Avatar
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    Herkimer: Safety course is required. Given my Sheriff's Department. $10 charge for course.

    Putnam: Safety course required. Sheriff's office gives course at no charge.

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    The book doesn't comment on whether or not Herkimer or Putnam will issue unrestricted permits. It does say that both require a safety course though.
    “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” -Sir Winston Churchill

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    Colonel Tim1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    I think that may be in part because a county that requires training or a probationary period with a restricted license is green on our map. A lot of people would say that green is only a county that issues a full carry for the asking without any other requirements.
    I don't think a training requirement should preclude a county from being in the green category. Many of the 'shall-issue' states also attach a training requirement to their concealed carry permits.
    “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” -Sir Winston Churchill

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    Alright, I found the time to go through all the counties in the book and compare them against the latest map. With a few exceptions the book usually doesn't give enough information to make a determination between yellow or red, it just says whether or not unrestricted licenses are generally issued.

    Here are the ones that should probably be changed, unless someone knows that the book happens to be out of date for a particular county in my list:

    • Cayuga should be yellow: Pistol licenses are normally restricted to "hunting and target shooting" or "employment." A license for self-protection can be issued with justification.
    • Chautauqua should be yellow or red: Licenses are generally restricted to "hunting, target shooting, and collecting." Licenses may be issued for "employment" purposes, when justified
    • Chenango should be yellow or red according to the book, but I'm presuming this pre-dates their Judge accepting Dave's class for training, so we ought to defer to him on this one: Licenses are generally restricted to "hunting, target shooting, collecting."
    • Jefferson might deserve to be changed to yellow, may need more information from a local to make a determination though: Licenses are regularly issued for "hunting, target and collecting." An unrestricted license may be issued upon request.
    • Lewis should be yellow or red: Licenses are generally restricted to "hunting, target shooting and trapping."
    • Oswego should be yellow or red: Licenses are generally restricted to "hunting, target shooting and employment."
    • Sullivan should be yellow or red: Licenses are generally restricted to "hunting, target shooting, collecting."
    • Warren might deserve to be red instead of yellow: Pistol licenses are normally restricted to "hunting and target shooting" or "employment." A license for self protection is not issued"
    “The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.” -Sir Winston Churchill

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    Captain 5.56superman's Avatar
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    boo im in a red county
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    Quote Originally Posted by javerial View Post
    I don't think a training requirement should preclude a county from being in the green category. Many of the 'shall-issue' states also attach a training requirement to their concealed carry permits.
    I agree and that's how we've done the map. But just to clarify a couple prior posts - we are talking about requirements for an unrestricted license.

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    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    I changed Cayuga, Chautauqua, Jefferson, Lewis, and Oswego to yellow.

    On Sullivan & Warren -- information supplied on this board indicates that the indicated colors are up-to-date.

    On Chenango -- I think we should wait on further input, as comments on this board indicated that the current policy is green.

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    Colonel Tim1's Avatar
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    Looks good
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    Any ideas to prove that i would have proper cause?
    A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
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    Transporting large amounts of money on a regular basis, have been a crime victim in the past etc.....



    Does it make sense? No, but that's the types of things that "justify" it
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    I am Iron Man! jeffx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56superman View Post
    Any ideas to prove that i would have proper cause?
    Taking a crapload of pistol training classes and getting both hips replaced worked for me...
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    Major ddan24's Avatar
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    "Transport highly valuable items" is what I put. I carry a laptop sometimes... heh

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    Quote Originally Posted by 5.56superman View Post
    Any ideas to prove that i would have proper cause?
    This is a county specific issue. To say the least. The more restrictive counties generally consider "proper cause" to be a showing that one faces a significantly greater risk of harm than the general population. But there is zero express guidance in the statute and the NY courts have refused to intervene in the question of what is proper cause (at least at this time).

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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    This is a county specific issue. To say the least. The more restrictive counties generally consider "proper cause" to be a showing that one faces a significantly greater risk of harm than the general population. But there is zero express guidance in the statute and the NY courts have refused to intervene in the question of what is proper cause (at least at this time).
    I think the others were on to something as far as transporting valuable items or a lot of money. I mean my work tools are worth some money and so are my firearms, or when I take my bike in the back of the pickup. I will think of something plus the face I know all of the judges in Tompkins county except for 1 and almost everyone in the sheriffs department so yeah
    A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government.
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    Captain davejensen's Avatar
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    You could take a look at the NYPD rules (title 38) for how they define the requisite level of risk. I know you're not in NYC but these are good examples of restrictive rules on the same statute that were written by lawyers. If you look through you'll see that they generally consider this "increased risk" to resist where there are facts that would make one a target (eg large amount of cash) or where there are facts that undeniably indicate that your life has been specifically and repeatedly threatened. You hestbet is to hit some local shops and clubs and do the field work. You might also try dropping by the clerks office and the pistol license office and asking under what circumstances they are granting full carry privileges.

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