Upgrade Denied in Erie County

**mark60** · 08-09-2012, 02:33 PM

My wife has had her permit for four years with the popular hunting/target restriction. Two years ago she applied to have her permit upgraded to unrestricted and was denied, reason given was she had to wait five years. It';s only been four years but that's close to five so she reapplied and got a denial letter today. Reason given was that she failed to show proper cause and could apply for an upgrade after having her permit for five years.

Can this be appealed and has anyone successfully been able to do this? Her reasons for wanting unrestricted were the same that I used a few years ago and I got mine with no problem. She also is at her office by herself the last two hours of the day and leaves by herself. With fall and winter coming it will be dark long before she leaves work and she and I would both feel better if she could legally carry her handgun.

**RayKnobs** · 08-09-2012, 02:41 PM

Not to point out the obvious but perhaps she was denied for not following the instructions?

**mark60** · 08-09-2012, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by RayKnobs

Not to point out the obvious but perhaps she was denied for not following the instructions?

Granted but given the fact some do receive unrestricted out of the gate, with good reason it should be approved. It's not a law to have to wait five years, just the Judge's preference.

**Wildman1024** · 08-09-2012, 02:49 PM

She can legally carry it as is. There is no law behind the "hunting/target". Carry conceal is carry conceal. For all they know maybe she is going to the range after work...

**RayKnobs** · 08-09-2012, 02:54 PM

mark60, Do any of us here need to point out why you shouldn't follow wildmans advise or can we just ignore that ever happened?

**mark60** · 08-09-2012, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by RayKnobs

mark60, Do any of us here need to point out why you shouldn't follow wildmans advise or can we just ignore that ever happened?

Our usual standard Hunting/Target restriction in Erie certainly causes a stir and is always hotly debated. At the end of the day it is what it is and we don't have much choice to accept it and move on. If she were ever found to be carrying when or where she wasn't supposed to be she could lose her permit altogether and that won't be risked even though I agree that's it's better than being raped or winding up dead. We don't have to like the rules but we're usually better off abiding by them.

**dsdmmat** · 08-09-2012, 03:18 PM

Federal courts have said that showing reasonable cause denials are unconstitutional. Get a Lawyer.

**Wildman1024** · 08-09-2012, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by dsdmmat

Federal courts have said that showing reasonable cause denials are unconstitutional. Get a Lawyer.

And its unconstitutional for the judge to put his feelings on my permit cause it makes him feel better!!!!

I follow the rules...I carry conceal like it says!

**usmcveteran** · 08-09-2012, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by dsdmmat

Federal courts have said that showing reasonable cause denials are unconstitutional. Get a Lawyer.

Only problem with that is I am sure those federal courts are not applicable to us. The federal courts around here would never rule like that.

Does make sense though. Why dont they have reasonable cause requirements to obtain permits for protests? That way they could say that what you wont to protest isnt important so you cant protest.

Or why dont they regulate free speech and say that what someone is complaining about is reasonable so they have to shut up lol.

I think in the next 4 years we will see without a doubt which way this country is headed.

**dsdmmat** · 08-09-2012, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by usmcveteran

Only problem with that is I am sure those federal courts are not applicable to us. The federal courts around here would never rule like that.

Does make sense though. Why dont they have reasonable cause requirements to obtain permits for protests? That way they could say that what you wont to protest isnt important so you cant protest.

Or why dont they regulate free speech and say that what someone is complaining about is reasonable so they have to shut up lol.

I think in the next 4 years we will see without a doubt which way this country is headed.

Any federal court ruling can be used as an exampleof case law in any court case. A federal court said States cannot use reasonable cause for Denial of constitutional rights, the ruling applies to every state. Fed case law beats State everytime, the problem is a person has to go to court to bully the State into following it.

If we were talking voting laws the DOJ would be all over this, but since it is about self defense the DOJ won't be found.

**hudsonvalley** · 08-09-2012, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Wildman1024

She can legally carry it as is. There is no law behind the "hunting/target". Carry conceal is carry conceal. For all they know maybe she is going to the range after work...

Absolutely correct....

**usmcveteran** · 08-09-2012, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by dsdmmat

Any federal court ruling can be used as an exampleof case law in any court case. A federal court said States cannot use reasonable cause for Denial of constitutional rights, the ruling applies to every state. Fed case law beats State everytime, the problem is a person has to go to court to bully the State into following it.

If we were talking voting laws the DOJ would be all over this, but since it is about self defense the DOJ won't be found.

NYS would not have to follow a federal court decision that took place in California. Yes it could be brought up in NYS court but its not binding on NYS.

**RayKnobs** · 08-09-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by hudsonvalley

Absolutely correct....

Are suggesting that the OP's wife lie to a member of law enforcement?

**dsdmmat** · 08-09-2012, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by usmcveteran

NYS would not have to follow a federal court decision that took place in California. Yes it could be brought up in NYS court but its not binding on NYS.

Correct to a point, you could use the 14th amendment to drag the county and the state into the federal court system. To make NYS abide by the ruling made by the 9th circuit you would have to go to court in the 2nd circuit and win. However the 9th circuit is the most overt turned circuit court in the US.

You would have reason to bring your suit to the Fed district 2 court because of the state is not abiding by the ruling that the 9th district court handed down. If the court rules against you, then that court case can be elevated to the supreme court because the two districts have ruled differently on the same thing.

**Darthgamer138** · 08-09-2012, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by RayKnobs

Are suggesting that the OP's wife lie to a member of law enforcement?

How would she be lying to Law Enforcement?

**Wildman1024** · 08-09-2012, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Darthgamer138

How would she be lying to Law Enforcement?

I would assume by "saying she was going to the range...etc etc" if somehow caught with it or needing to use it. Because she would "really" be carrying outside the "guidelines" of the judge even though perfectly legal law wise.

**usmcveteran** · 08-09-2012, 04:19 PM

I would say lieing to the officer would get you in more trouble. Just be honest about it and he may not even tell the judge. But you really shouldnt be dealing with police when your carry concealed and if you use it and your justified then I find it hard to believe your permit would be revoked by the judge.

**Wildman1024** · 08-09-2012, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by usmcveteran

I would say lieing to the officer would get you in more trouble. Just be honest about it and he may not even tell the judge. But you really shouldnt be dealing with police when your carry concealed and if you use it and your justified then I find it hard to believe your permit would be revoked by the judge.

exactly

**RayKnobs** · 08-09-2012, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by Wildman1024

ROFL...We wouldn't want that to happen!!! It's not like they lie to us, make false acquisitions and arrests or push their weight around!

Perhaps we should ask the ones that are members here or are they exempt from your stereotype?

**waldershrek** · 08-09-2012, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Wildman1024

She can legally carry it as is. There is no law behind the "hunting/target". Carry conceal is carry conceal. For all they know maybe she is going to the range after work...

While technically correct, if the judge finds out you might piss him off and he will revoke it comletely for carrying outside of his administrative restrictions.

**Darthgamer138** · 08-09-2012, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by waldershrek

While technically correct, if the judge finds out you might piss him off and he will revoke it comletely for carrying outside of his administrative restrictions.

Which he can also do for: Any reason whatsoever.

**Dieter122** · 08-09-2012, 06:27 PM

My head hurts. You break no law by carrying a pistol with a target/range stamped CARRY permit

Dont act like an idiot, get drunk, fight with police or mess around in school zones. Simple enough to avoid issues.

You gotta piss a cop off in a big way and majorly mess up for him to write an extra report to the judge complaining that you may be breaking the judges wishes. His desire is not law.

**Evild** · 08-09-2012, 06:29 PM

The hole pistol permit process in NY is unconstitutional, but it has never been to high enough court to matter. Get a lawyer, cost Erie county as much money as you can, raise Cain, go public... This crap has to stop.

**Evild** · 08-09-2012, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by waldershrek

While technically correct, if the judge finds out you might piss him off and he will revoke it comletely for carrying outside of his administrative restrictions.

Again, I have to ask for solid proof of this happening.

**mark60** · 08-09-2012, 07:03 PM

It always is an interesting discussion and I do think the restriction is ridiculous but my wife and I do try to abide by the rules. I was hoping someone would have experience with this but I guess we'll pave the way. It's not hard to wait another year but for the sake of principal I do think we'll get in touch with an attorney, I feel strongly enough to spend some money if I have to.