Denied pistol permit in Albany County

**Cossey** · 11-02-2011, 08:36 PM

So after waiting for six months and going through the motions in order get my permit, my application has been denied. The judge (Richard Platkin) stated that due to my driving record, I show instances where I lacked maturity and responsibility, as well as instances of disrespecting the courts (failure to show up to court in 2006 resulted in a suspended license resulting in me getting pulled over and convicted of "aggravated unlicensed operation" in the 3rd degree. So five years ago when I was 18 years old I made a bad decision (though not a criminal act in the form of violence, theft, or drug related) that is now resulting in my denial of my right to possess a pistol, even for target shooting. I also was pulled over four times in a four month period in 2009. Since then I've only multiplied my yearly income, bought a $450k house, 2.5yr relationship with a retired police chief's daughter, and raised my credit score 300pts with all three credit bureaus. But to the judge, I did not show that I have changed one bit.

I already called my lawyer who has handled (successfully) several pistol permit appeals and I just need to go down and pick up all of my application bits and pieces when they're ready and bring them to him.

/rant

Side note: Anyone looking for a nice house in Guilderland in a great neighborhood?

**<JP>** · 11-02-2011, 08:46 PM

Good luck with the appeal.

Sucks, but like it or not we all have to live with the stupid stuff we did. Real life lesson there.

**guygus3516** · 11-02-2011, 08:48 PM

Yes, good luck with the appeal.

**quinnow1** · 11-02-2011, 09:31 PM

Well I do not see how what you make as far as money has any matter what so ever when it comes to being approved ( and it should not) as I know a ton of friends that live on a small income that I feel are some of the best people on the planet when it comes to respect and safety.
I also do not know what a police chiefs daughter and a credit score was supposed to do for you?

I can kinda see where the judge was running with this based on your comments of being pulled over 4 times in a month and not showing up for court. You have to remember the judge can only go by the facts placed in front of him. And it may stir a fire but i myself am glad that judges do not just toss out permits to every person tossing an application on his/her desk.

Perhaps the right path you should have taken when submitting your application would have been to of added a side letter stating that the actions of your past were the result of a young age and that looking back you have regrets, but at the same time consider them a lesson in life on right from wrong and feel that you have matured beyond those same actions. Honestly goes a long long ways. They just want to hear that you realize what you did was wrong and that you are man enough to admit it. I was a kid once too and in the same boat. Had my brush with the law at 17 and when i submitted my application I tossed a letter in simply stating how stupid i was as a kid and that i have learned from my past. Got my permit 5 months after I sent it in many many years ago.

**Cossey** · 11-02-2011, 09:44 PM

The reason I stated about income and credit score is because it shows I've done things to become more responsible and am making a very positive change in my life.
The police chiefs daughter part is because he was one of my reference and because of his former position, can provide a good judge of character and trusts me with his daughter and a gun.
Also, it was four times in four months, not in one month.

**guygus3516** · 11-02-2011, 09:50 PM

Again, good luck, and I admire your moxy to go for the police cheifs daughter, when I was in high school this girls father was BCI and hot as hell, but off limits to me and my thoughts/actions at the time, hope it all works out

**kkelley** · 11-02-2011, 10:37 PM

Did he pull you into a hearing with him at least? I've heard of that being done in Monroe county so the judge can ask some clarifying questions about the application and get a better feel for the applicant's character.

Good luck with the appeal, I hope you get some chance to make your case to the judge and prove to him those mistakes are in your past.

**Gunny** · 11-03-2011, 10:48 AM

I think if you give it some time and let the appeal process work and keep a cool head you may be ok. The last thing you want to do is come off like a hothead. You need to prove yourself over a long period of time to the judge. They hold all the cards in these matters.

**Cossey** · 11-03-2011, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by kkelley

Did he pull you into a hearing with him at least? I've heard of that being done in Monroe county so the judge can ask some clarifying questions about the application and get a better feel for the applicant's character.

Good luck with the appeal, I hope you get some chance to make your case to the judge and prove to him those mistakes are in your past.

Yes, but he has all Albany County residents who want their permit too meet with him. I think what bothered me most is that during the hearing, it seemed like he already had his mind made up regardless of the interview, and he could not maintain eye contact when speaking with me.

Gunny - I was mostly just angry the first day, but now that I know my lawyer is optimistic and enthusiastic about the appeal, I do feel a bit better. I'm just worried this appeal process is going to take a long time.

**sdb3023** · 11-03-2011, 12:23 PM

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

**MacK5270** · 11-03-2011, 01:23 PM

i got denied for the exacty same thing with simmular background (erie county)

**OwnTheRide** · 11-04-2011, 11:26 AM

That really sucks, OP, I hope it gets resolved.

I was initially denied for my permit and had very similar feelings to what you express. I'm a responsible and hardworking person who pays a lot of taxes and donates a lot of money and time to the community. I decided there would be some severe changes to that if the appeal did not go through, likely resulting in me moving to a state that better respects my natural and constitutionally-defined rights.

My appeal went through without issue (it was a fairly minimal thing - I got into some trouble as a kid and was given an appearance ticket. Apparently that counted as "being arrested", and since I hadn't mentioned that I was arrested for that incident, the judge initially denied my permit.) However, I still want to move to another state, hah

**Cossey** · 12-15-2011, 01:40 PM

UPDATE:

Lawyer said the judge was not out of line in his decision, and said it'd cost thousands just to most likely not make any progress, so I decided to write the judge a letter at the end of November asking for reconsideration. I was respectful, and stated the ways I've made a very positive change in my life and such, had a couple friends who may be better at writing than I proofread and they said it was fine.

I just got my response, and the judge is sticking to his decision and told me to reapply in September.. 2013. Effing lovely.
Talk about a waste of tax payer's dollars for me to meet with the judge to have his decision made beforehand. I would've rather have not had to go down to the courthouse, wasting not only my time, but the judge, stenographer, and witness's time as well.

**waldershrek** · 12-15-2011, 01:53 PM

Welcome to NY!

**Cossey** · 12-15-2011, 01:56 PM

One thing that bothers me most besides not getting to use my Constitutional rights, is that I legitimately feel like a criminal at this point... Like I'm getting lumped in with the wife-beaters, thieves, etc...

**arizonajack** · 12-15-2011, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by Cossey

I also was pulled over four times in a four month period in 2009.

2009 was only two years ago. Insurance statistics still rate you as an irresponsible driver and will put you in a high risk classification for at least another year till the citations drop off your 3 year driving record. Insurance companies might even use a 5 year record for underwriting purposes.

You're still considered bad news for operating a 2 ton weapon made of steel. Stands to reason that somebody considers you bad news for operating a 2 pound weapon made of steel.

I sincerely wish you success with the appeal but if it doesn't work out you'll just have to wait till those citations drop off your driving record and make sure you don't get any more.

**jhm8071** · 12-15-2011, 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by arizonajack

2009 was only two years ago. Insurance statistics still rate you as an irresponsible driver and will put you in a high risk classification for at least another year till the citations drop off your 3 year driving record. Insurance companies might even use a 5 year record for underwriting purposes.

You're still considered bad news for operating a 2 ton weapon made of steel. Stands to reason that somebody considers you bad news for operating a 2 pound weapon made of steel.

I sincerely wish you success with the appeal but if it doesn't work out you'll just have to wait till those citations drop off your driving record and make sure you don't get any more.

I agree. It stinks. You've obviously made some great changes, but it's only been 2 years. That isn't much time in the scheme of things. Good luck re-applying in 2013. Make sure to keep copies of all your papers and if you get the same judge, remind him that's when he said to apply again.

**fatmax2** · 12-16-2011, 07:33 AM

I give you a lot of credit for not rolling over.

**RochPersDef** · 12-16-2011, 08:19 AM

Cossey: I do feel for you. It sucks when you have made yourself better but still have a few black marks in your past that continue to haunt you. I do wish you luck in your appeal or refiling. I do suggest a change of venue- move.

Lets look at this situation (and many others) and see what we have:

So, we have an applicant that did not follow the 'rules of the state', disregarded a court order, AND they have multiple contacts with law enforcement - multiple times in a very short period of time. Don't get me wrong, I am all for anyone that deserves to own a firearm in doing so, BUT this is a mature and responsible concept. If someone cannot show some basic mature judgement and responsibility, then how can you expect to be granted the privilege of carrying a handgun? (yes. A privilege, not a right to carry concealed. See other posts on this)

Is everyone squeaky-clean? Probably not, but you have to look at this from the judges point of view. He has two applications on his desk from two different people. One, Applicant A, is a person that grew up and stayed out of trouble. Applicant B is someone who made some bad choices and has been before the court in a few instances. He has to basically look at this and decide which one of these applicants is better? Which one, if I sign their forms, am I going to have a good chance of seeing again in a court? Applicant A or B? The judge is going to look at Applicant B as someone who is a possible risk. Overall, B will probably embarrass the judge. (again, looking at this from the judges point of view)

The one thing that everyone should realize is that the judge can deny you for 'immature judgement'. The problem is that it is very subjective on how it is decided. Unfortunately, some counties are very anti gun or just 'anti-letting citizens-carry-concealed'. That's unfortunate.

The best advice for anyone going to get a permit is to spend a couple bucks and get a transcript of their records. If you have had any interaction with law enforcement or the courts - for any reason - then you should do your research. Second step is to chat with a lawyer who knows this stuff. They can advise you on how to get out in front of any issues and minimize the damage, if any.

It is better to deal with this ahead of time rather than go, get denied, and then try an article 78 hearing. The issue is that if your permit app is denied, that is a huge obstacle that you are now required to disclose on any application. You're screwed.

Yes. The Second Amendment grants you the right to keep and bear arms. I fully agree. Although the 2A does not differentiate between long guns and handguns, NY does allow you to keep arms (long guns) but you have to ask for the privilege of carrying a handgun concealed among your fellow NY'ers. I understand that some of you do not like that though but that's the way it is. Posting your anger or frustrations on an internet forum will not change anything. (You do know that issuing authorities are now searching Google, FB, online forums, and other social media, right? Say something bad and they'll see that too)

The moral of the story is: don't do stupid stuff growing up and then expect that it all goes away. Make better choices when you are younger and the rest of your adult life is easier.

**guygus3516** · 12-16-2011, 09:45 AM

You know the story. Build a thousand houses and nobody calls you a master builder, but suck one C*#k and you know what they will call you. Sit tight, keep your nose clean. Take some more pistol safety classes if you are able. Re apply when you can and hopefully they wil reconsider. Good luck.

**ChrisWNY** · 12-16-2011, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by RochPersDef

...

The moral of the story is: don't do stupid stuff growing up and then expect that it all goes away. Make better choices when you are younger and the rest of your adult life is easier.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

**CountyCorrectionOfficer** · 12-16-2011, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by Cossey

One thing that bothers me most besides not getting to use my Constitutional rights, is that I legitimately feel like a criminal at this point... Like I'm getting lumped in with the wife-beaters, thieves, etc...

If you want to possess and/or carry a handgun legally you might consider "voting with your feet" and moving to a 'Shall issue' state in the South or West. In the Northeast, Vermont is a shall issue state in that NO PISTOL LICENSES are required at all for possession and /or CCW. Merely pass the Brady background check for purchase. You are residing in a "may issue" state which makes pistol ownership in New York a privilege--not an absolute right!

Other then that, pistol permits denials forwarded over to the State Supreme Court on an Article 78 proceeding will most likely favor the licensing officer's discretion in denying you a permit and would only put money in your attorney's pocket.

**Jeff** · 12-16-2011, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by CountyCorrectionOfficer

If you want to possess and/or carry a handgun legally you might consider "voting with your feet" and moving to a 'Shall issue' state in the South or West. In the Northeast, Vermont is a shall issue state in that NO PISTOL LICENSES are required at all for possession and /or CCW. Merely pass the Brady background check for purchase. You are residing in a "may issue" state which makes pistol ownership in New York a privilege--not an absolute right!

Other then that, pistol permits denials forwarded over to the State Supreme Court on an Article 78 proceeding will most likely favor the licensing officer's discretion in denying you a permit and would only put money in your attorney's pocket.

Or to another county. I know people with worse records than that and have gotten permits with no issue.

Guess what... they haven't done anything irresponsible with the gun either.

**ChrisWNY** · 12-16-2011, 08:34 PM

Yeah, I've had my share of traffic citations (all of them were reduced in some manner) over the 17 years I've had my Driver's license. I think the aggravated unlicensed operation charge (I believe that's a misdemeanor; I worked with a guy who had a warrant out for his arrest for the same charge) did the OP in as far as the permit denial.

The OP does not necessarily have to hire a lawyer to appeal/fight the permit denial, he can fight it himself. While it may be a long shot, people who are intelligent and articulate have been known to have success fighting their own battles in the Court system. Just throwing that out there as a possibility.

**CountyCorrectionOfficer** · 12-17-2011, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by darkvibe

Or to another county. I know people with worse records than that and have gotten permits with no issue.

Guess what... they haven't done anything irresponsible with the gun either.

Very true, 'fitness and character issues' for pistol permit applicants vary from county to county so what could be one licensing officer's denial could be another one's acceptance. No standardization in New York. NYPD [NYC] will deny a pistol permit applicant for the slightest thing wrong in their background irregardless of how long ago the event occurred.