Almost got arrested today

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 09:03 AM

The good news is that there was no arrest. The law is the law whether or not it is "justified" or constitutional in some people's eyes. Unfortunately, ignorance is no excuse for the law. As far as I am concerned, this should be considered a warning to others. I do not like the law myself, nor do I like that tactics and number generation used by the Administration. This is turning into an unnecessary Cop bashing thread. These men and women are understaffed and underpaid. Not to mention the fact that they are under pressure to produce. They are human beings and put there pants on one leg at a time just like you and I.

Seeing the clip (regardless of whether or not it turned out to be a pen or not) gave the P.O. reasonable suspicion to conduct a lawful search. He reasonably suspected that there was a knife.

Like I said, if you do not like the laws, take some grass root actions to change them. Get involved and vote. Stay out of the City if you so choose. If you have to go there for work, etc, leave the blade at home, or carry something that is legal to carry.

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 09:09 AM

Now, on a more positive note, I found a perfect place where we can all live in pace and harmony together. The bad news.....it is somewhere over the rainbow. Might be hard to get there!!

**GROM** · 05-08-2012, 09:23 AM

Originally Posted by Steve-o

The good news is that there was no arrest. The law is the law whether or not it is "justified" or constitutional in some people's eyes. Unfortunately, ignorance is no excuse for the law. As far as I am concerned, this should be considered a warning to others. I do not like the law myself, nor do I like that tactics and number generation used by the Administration. This is turning into an unnecessary Cop bashing thread. These men and women are understaffed and underpaid. Not to mention the fact that they are under pressure to produce. They are human beings and put there pants on one leg at a time just like you and I.

Seeing the clip (regardless of whether or not it turned out to be a pen or not) gave the P.O. reasonable suspicion to conduct a lawful search. He reasonably suspected that there was a knife.

Like I said, if you do not like the laws, take some grass root actions to change them. Get involved and vote. Stay out of the City if you so choose. If you have to go there for work, etc, leave the blade at home, or carry something that is legal to carry.

For what it's worth, I agree that the officer was just doing his job, he reasonably suspected an illegal object, so he investigated, and I did not feel like I was being harassed. He didn't pat me down, search me, was polite, gave me the knife back, and sent me on my way. I have left the knife and the pepper spray at home as I have no choice but to comply with the vague, generic, ambiguous state and city laws. But at least I can still carry my Mil-Tac pen
http://store.mil-tac.com/ProductImag...dp1-blk-lg.JPG

**niacin** · 05-08-2012, 09:32 AM

Hasnt anybody seen the movie Gangs of New York? That's why they're so strict!

**ECU Pirates** · 05-08-2012, 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by niacin

Hasnt anybody seen the movie Gangs of New York? That's why they're so strict!

I find this post ironic given your avatar picture!

**jmac00** · 05-08-2012, 10:19 AM

well I have a question? If the officer suspected an illegal item, shouldn't he stop the person AND ASK if he had a any weapons, or knives on him.

It seems to me walking up and tapping you on the shoulder and then lifting your shirt without your permission is an illegal search.

I also suspect you saying your a tech with the DA's office had an impact on his decision to release you.

**ECU Pirates** · 05-08-2012, 10:22 AM

I know the officer has a job to do but this is a bit much. Do you think he checks every pen clip in a pocket? Having a pen should not be a reason to be searched (lifting up a shirt is a search). I have a feeling the NRA shirt had something to do with this. The city and surrounding areas are dreadful places that I hate to visit. Unfortunately I am required to for work. I will make sure to leave my pens in by bag and wear only liberal organization clothing in the future to avoid hassles.

**GROM** · 05-08-2012, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by jmac00

well I have a question? If the officer suspected an illegal item, shouldn't he stop the person AND ASK if he had a any weapons, or knives on him.

It seems to me walking up and tapping you on the shoulder and then lifting your shirt without your permission is an illegal search.

I also suspect you saying your a tech with the DA's office had an impact on his decision to release you.

I think that since an exposed clip is considered an open-carry, which is illegal in the city, there is a probable cause for a search and seizure. Probable cause being, "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime", or "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".

I agree that I was most likely let go because I work at KCDA.

**meketrefe** · 05-08-2012, 10:33 AM

The cops have not justifiable reason to stop this citizen. You cannot stop people based on their t-shirts.
Those are gestapo style type of tactics that are unconstitutional.

The equal justice foundation believes that...

• Restore due process.
• Reverse the loss of our civil liberties.
• Ensure equality for all citizens before the bar.
• Establish judicial accountability.
• Reestablish the rule of law.
• Maintain property rights and enforcement of contracts.
• Define marriage as a contract between men and women to provide for the upbringing and education of their children without collectivist interference.
• Preserve the secret ballot.
• Ensure open, fair, and honest elections.
• Make the Bill of Rights a living document in our time.

They also believe.

• Citizens shall not be torn from their homes and children in the middle of the night based on nothing more than hearsay.
• Men and women shall not be presumed guilty until they can prove their innocence.
• A secret tribunal shall not have the power to force a man from his home without notice or hearing.
• Police shall not have the right to enter and search a citizen's home without a warrant.
• Citizens shall not be imprisoned based only on hearsay.
• Citizens are not more afraid of the police than they are of criminals.
• A legal system exists that does not tolerate perjury or the subornation of perjury.
• Citizens shall not be censured by public officials for crimes they have not committed.
• Men and women are not made to work as indentured servants or held in thrall to others for acts they have not committed.
• A marriage license does not make men and women servants of the State or give courts possession of their children.

**jmac00** · 05-08-2012, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by GROM

I think that since an exposed clip is considered an open-carry, which is illegal in the city, there is a probable cause for a search and seizure. Probable cause being, "a reasonable belief that a person has committed a crime", or "a reasonable amount of suspicion, supported by circumstances sufficiently strong to justify a prudent and cautious person's belief that certain facts are probably true".

I agree that I was most likely let go because I work at KCDA.

damn that sux. At least he let you go,

**Temporaryscars** · 05-08-2012, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by GROM

For what it's worth, I agree that the officer was just doing his job, he reasonably suspected an illegal object, so he investigated, and I did not feel like I was being harassed. He didn't pat me down, search me, was polite, gave me the knife back, and sent me on my way. I have left the knife and the pepper spray at home as I have no choice but to comply with the vague, generic, ambiguous state and city laws. But at least I can still carry my Mil-Tac pen
http://store.mil-tac.com/ProductImag...dp1-blk-lg.JPG

He was just following orders, right? JUSTIFIED!

**Jeff** · 05-08-2012, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Temporaryscars

He was just following orders, right? JUSTIFIED!

this is getting pretty close to a closed thread and banned user.

**Temporaryscars** · 05-08-2012, 02:22 PM

Fair enough. Let me go review the rules and see if I can figure out which one I'm breaking that would justify such an action.

9 and maybe 15? Ok, I can see that. In that case, I yeild.

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 02:29 PM

Meketrefe...100% incorrect. If he reasonably believed that the clip was a knife, he was 100% justified. Reasonable belief = reasonable suspicion. Check the NYS PL. ;-)

Better yet....since I find this aggravating......here it is.....

PEOPLE v. LINDSAY, - NY Supreme Court, Appellate Division | FindLaw

The Cop did absolutely nothing wrong. The laws may suck, but the Cop was doing his job and doing it well.

**jmac00** · 05-08-2012, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by Steve-o

Meketrefe...100% incorrect. If he reasonably believed that the clip was a knife, he was 100% justified. Reasonable belief = reasonable suspicion. Check the NYS PL. ;-)

Better yet....since I find this aggravating......here it is.....

PEOPLE v. LINDSAY, - NY Supreme Court, Appellate Division | FindLaw

The Cop did absolutely nothing wrong. The laws may suck, but the Cop was doing his job and doing it well.

the case you quote is in no way related to a guy simply standing at a train station. There was no flight from officers, and the officers were not working off a tip. The individual in question was not doing anything even remotely suspicious.

I understand what your attempting to say, you just picked a poor example

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 02:43 PM

Ok....you got me. I did not read the case. Just walked in from a school field trip and have to go back and get them off the bus.

My bad.

That being said, the Cop did have reasonable suspicion. :-)

Just wanted to add....I am also glad that Grom had a positive interaction with the Popo and was able to go home.

**ECU Pirates** · 05-08-2012, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Steve-o

The good news is that there was no arrest. The law is the law whether or not it is "justified" or constitutional in some people's eyes. Unfortunately, ignorance is no excuse for the law. .

I don't see how carrying a legal folding knife is ignorance of the law. In my opinion (and under the definition of a gravity knife) the knife in question was not illegal. I believe this is what the OP had.

Amazon.com: Benchmade Design HK Ally Knife: Sports & Outdoors

"The gravity knife uses a button, trigger, or fulcrum lever to release the blade from both the open and the closed positions, and may use a side-folding or telescoping (out-the-front, or OTF) blade. While most military gravity knives utilize a locking blade design, other types may not mechanically lock open but rely instead upon friction to wedge the rear section of the blade against the interior of the handle.^[2] Factory-made gravity knives have various types of buttons, triggers, and fulcrum levers, which usually are used to release the blade from both the open and the closed positions."

Maybe he let you go because you did nothing illegal. You did not have the clip exposed. So it was not open carry. Every folding knife can use gravity to a certain extent (as gravity assists the opening and locking of the blade).

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 03:57 PM

If you can use gravity "flick it into an open position" in NYC, it is considered a gravity knife. I am simply stating fact. Is it worth it to get arrested, pay for an attorney, etc, etc?

You make the call.

Gravity knives are defined by state law as knives that open via centrifugal force and have a blade that locks automatically in place.

Is NYPD's Knife Crackdown Just a Tad Overzealous?: Gothamist

Now, I have to go back to my regularly scheduled life. We are all big boys and girls here. We can make our own choices.

**ECU Pirates** · 05-08-2012, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Steve-o

Meketrefe...100% incorrect. If he reasonably believed that the clip was a knife, he was 100% justified. Reasonable belief = reasonable suspicion. Check the NYS PL. ;-)

Better yet....since I find this aggravating......here it is.....

PEOPLE v. LINDSAY, - NY Supreme Court, Appellate Division | FindLaw

The Cop did absolutely nothing wrong. The laws may suck, but the Cop was doing his job and doing it well.

You can use "Reasonable belief = Reasonable suspicion" rule to do anything. A cell phone in a pocket could be a .380. They are about the same size. A smart phone case could hold a .380 or a knife. By that rational anyone with a phone can legally be searched. There should be some limits. A pen clip = search is overstepping things in my opinion. The OP should have a pen clip exposed in both pockets and not wear an NRA shirt and see if he is ever searched again.

**ECU Pirates** · 05-08-2012, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by Steve-o

If you can use gravity "flick it into an open position" in NYC, it is considered a gravity knife. I am simply stating fact. Is it worth it to get arrested, pay for an attorney, etc, etc?

You make the call.

Gravity knives are defined by state law as knives that open via centrifugal force and have a blade that locks automatically in place.

Is NYPD's Knife Crackdown Just a Tad Overzealous?: Gothamist

Now, I have to go back to my regularly scheduled life. We are all big boys and girls here. We can make our own choices.

I will never have this issue. When I'm in the city for work I won't even carry a letter opener. By the NYC definition, the classic buck folder that has been loosened by honest use can now be an illegal gravity knife. It's beyond stupid and a complete waste of court resources. If you buy a kitchen knife over 4 inches long and have it in a bag on the way home are you committing a crime? Even if its still in the package? The lawyer hit the nail on the head here:

In court yesterday, Kuby told the judge, "Apparently, whether or not a knife is a gravity knife depends on the wrist size and dexterity of the arresting officer."

What a dreadful city...

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 04:24 PM

ECU...you are 100% correct. There are catch alls written into the law. Take DISCON for instance. 240.20 of the NYS Penal Law. Look it up. It is pretty easy to fall into any criteria there.

I also agree, agree and agree with the other postings. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. I stay away myself.

**ECU Pirates** · 05-08-2012, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Steve-o

ECU...you are 100% correct. There are catch alls written into the law. Take DISCON for instance. 240.20 of the NYS Penal Law. Look it up. It is pretty easy to fall into any criteria there.

I also agree, agree and agree with the other postings. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is. I stay away myself.

Yep, numerous laws that don't prevent any crimes seem odd to most of us! I know the laws are written with intentional confusion at times also. It's a CYA for the state to not get sued (among other things). I know there are many laws on the books that are not enforced. I just wonder why the example in the article you attached was. I thought you lived near the city for some reason.

**Finny** · 05-08-2012, 04:35 PM

Dang I hate to think it, but I agree with the others about the NRA shirt aiding in drawing the contact.

**Steve-o** · 05-08-2012, 04:57 PM

If I had the luxury of moving, I would.

**DystruktoBoi1** · 05-08-2012, 05:00 PM

I disagree with everything the officer did and I think that the NRA shirt and then your job for the DA influenced his decisions. That is all I will say because I too will probably end up banned.