Roofing question

[ChrisWNY]

So my parents had their roof re-shingled back in 2003. I'm not sure what was re-shingled, whether it was the both the upper and lower roof, or just the upper roof (my father arranged the re-roofing and died suddenly/unexpectedly a couple of years ago). At any rate, the upper-most roof is starting to look a little "wavy". I'm assuming that's because the upper roof has 2 layers of shingles, and the lower one still has the single original layer. It looks like crap and my mother is trying to sell the house.

Just wanted opinions of whether or not she's looking at a complete tear-down and re-roof to fix the problem, or if this is purely something cosmetic that she could let "slide". There are no apparent leaks, no water staining on any of the ceilings on the 2nd floor, so I'm thinking the waviness is the result of the plywood warping underneath due to the weight of the 2nd layer of shingles. Obviously she's having a roofing contractor check the situation out, but wanted to get some opinions here so that some piker doesn't try to bilk her with a huge expense that may not be necessary at this point.

[11B]

I'm no contractor or expert but I think your right on with your assumption.
Like anyone will also suggest get multiple estimates.
I had my roof redone last year and I had estimates ranging from $6k to $14k

Some piker lol. You like the movie snatch as well ?

[NoBama]

Roofong material is organic and if there are multiple layers you may see it move and flex. My guess is cosmetic however if there is a good strom there may be an issue.

[NoBama]

Keep us up to date on how it turns out.

[ChrisWNY]

...

Some piker lol. You like the movie snatch as well ?

Yes, a great movie IMHO. I'm no fan of Pitt but I liked him in that movie as the "piker". LOL.

Thanks for the tip on the "flex" issue. I would presume roof flex is more apparent when there is a 2nd layer of shingles involved. I'm no contracting expert either but know there are a few here that regularly post so I figured there are likely quite a few who know a lot more than me about what's going on with that roof.

[de17walt]

Looking @ the shingles on the dormer it would almost seem that there is a heat loss in that area. Shingles will wear prematurely if thay are subject to a lot of heat coming from the attic or crawl space, checked to make sure there is enough insulation in that area. They main roof appears to be in good shape. Architectural Roofing Shingles should last @ the least 25 years and there are some that are warrantied up to 35 years. Just so you know you can not reroof again because of the Architectural Shingles that are on there, the roof or roofs that are down now will have to be removed completely. If you are wondering, I have layed down a few roofs.

[arizonajack]

I'm a retired property insurance adjuster and I agree with de17walt's take.

Your Mom has the option of reroofing the upper roof with a complete tear off or selling the house as is knowing that she will have to accept a lower price to offset the cost of reroofing that section.

Since there are no leaks and the lower roof has a good appearance, if she can match the shingles, I'd go with just reroofing the upper roof just for the sake of appearance (curb appeal, as they say in the real estate biz).

Beware of roofing contractors that say they can't do the work unless they do the whole house. They'll be full of crap.

Another bit of advice. Any time a roofer goes up on the roof, go up there with him and make sure you are seeing what he is seeing.

Come back to this thread if there is something you need more discussion on. Between me and de17walt, we ought to be able to help you out.

[zeus1gdsm]

as an ex-roofing asistant i agree with the double layer conclusion. i will say that roofing is a heck of alot easier than most think. It doesnt look like to much square footage on that side. wouldn't be too hard to rip it and reshingle, unless it is on both sides (x2 the work).. of course there is allways the cheapo version of just reshingleing over whats there... will look good for a year or two anyway. but not the best long term medicine by any means.

we had several pre-sales jobs where owner asked to just reshingle over whats there... rippped some that had 3-4 layers now thats a b**ch

[de17walt]

as an ex-roofing asistant i agree with the double layer conclusion. i will say that roofing is a heck of alot easier than most think. It doesnt look like to much square footage on that side. wouldn't be too hard to rip it and reshingle, unless it is on both sides (x2 the work).. of course there is allways the cheapo version of just reshingleing over whats there... will look good for a year or two anyway. but not the best long term medicine by any means.

we had several pre-sales jobs where owner asked to just reshingle over whats there... rippped some that had 3-4 layers now thats a b**ch

It looks like the dormer has Architectural Shingles like the main roof and you can not shingle over them (Architectural Shingles), if they were a three tab or a old citation shingle then I would say that would be a solution to ripping

[tony]

I'm not a roofer but I've done a few. I think it to be best to remove old shingles, inspect the deck, repair if necessary, reshingle. If a job is worth doing it's worth doing right.

[varmint]

Could you get a closer picture?...Do you know if osb or plywood is under the shingles? Did the roof deck get rained on before the shingles were applied? Did someone blow in insulation and cover the soffit vents?
Osb responds more slowly to changes in relative humidity and exposure to water. It takes longer for water to soak osb, however once water gets into osb it is very slow to leave. The longer that water remains within osb the more likely it is to rot. Wood species has a significant impact. If osb is made from aspen or poplar, it gets a big fat zero with regard to natural decay resistance. Many of the western woods used to manufacture plywood at least have moderate decay resistance.

[Yodamage]

Am I seeing something wrong or a distortion in the picture, or is the actual roof ridge bowing between the right edge of the roof and what appears to be a vent pipe in the middle of the photo? That scares the crud out of me.

This looks like a standard 70's built Raised Colonial and as such is probably 2x6 rafters 16 o/c with minimal collar ties and ridge unsupported vertically across its run, covered in 1/2 ply. That was minimal code back in that day. It results, over time, it a ton of sag due to dead load near capacity and a roof that is springy like a trampoline. Tell me if I'm wrong but I bet I'm pretty close.

If I am, the issue is not the deck, but is actually the rafters which is just being magnified by the additional load of a second layer of arch. style shingles which are even heavier per sq/ft then the 3 tabs it probably had on it when built.

It the past with friends I know, we've used an interior weight bearing wall (or a second story wall built above or very close to the first floor weight bearer) to use as a point to jack the ridge back up to where it belongs, then added collar ties to every rafter instead of the 4' o/c they probably are, then added purlins the each side of the peak and braced them as much as possible on ceiling joists under us with bracing, concentrating bracing points to land vertically on second story walls.

In fact, I had this same issue on the 2.5 car garage attached to my 1974 build colonial and added a doubled 11 1/4 LVL beam across the mid point of the garage to support additional 2x8 joists on the 16 oc then braced off the top of the LVL span, with the LVL jacked on both ends straight off the foundation. Was only a weekend and about a $600 cost to do the whole project.

If none of that makes sense to you, please hire an engineer or contractor.

[Yodamage]

PS, I've also seen guys pull a gable end vent and crane in 2 or 3 LVL to be used end to end as a strong back both to pure brace / hybrid truss off of which had added benefit of allowing you to handle any sagging second story ceiling joists but this whole thing adds layers of engineering, equipment and cost that is beyond where I tend to live

[ChrisWNY]

I've never seen what is underneath the shingles - could be OSB or plywood, though I thought plywood was the standard for roofs (I know regular plywood was used on my roof when my house was built in 2007/08). Parents bought the place in 1991, and didn't do anything to the roofing until 2003. The house was built in 1978/79 and had two owners prior to my parents owning it. My Dad had figured since the roof was at about its 25 yr mark in 2003, that he better have it re-shingled.

A contractor should be over there on Monday, so I'll post the info I know once he's stopped over to check it out. The house is in Jamestown, NY. If it were closer to where I live (North of Buffalo), I'd probably get a couple of buddies to help and re-roof it myself. I've also done roofing work - I did the re-shingling and tear off of my garage roof at my former house in N. Tonawanda 6 or 7 years ago, and helped a buddy re-roof his house in Amherst last year. I'm not a complete noob but don't know much about diagnosing roofing problems.

Thanks to everyone who posted for all the advice to this point! Very helpful. Keep it coming, of course, if you have any other info. If I can get some better photos I'll certainly post them as well.

[ChrisWNY]

Am I seeing something wrong or a distortion in the picture, or is the actual roof ridge bowing between the right edge of the roof and what appears to be a vent pipe in the middle of the photo? That scares the crud out of me.

This looks like a standard 70's built Raised Colonial and as such is probably 2x6 rafters 16 o/c with minimal collar ties and ridge unsupported vertically across its run, covered in 1/2 ply. That was minimal code back in that day. It results, over time, it a ton of sag due to dead load near capacity and a roof that is springy like a trampoline. Tell me if I'm wrong but I bet I'm pretty close.

...

You're almost dead-on. I don't think the ridge is bowing, that may be a result of how the photo was taken (optical illusion of some sort). However there is quite a "swell", then a dip in the shingles just below the ridge on the right-most side. Your post showed up right after I had written my previous post, house was built in 1978, and yes, it's a 2-story colonial style home.

[ChrisWNY]

Here are some more photos of the roof...

[KBurdo]

If your in need of some good roofers, I can give you the hook up when I get home. These guys ripped off 4 layers & replaced the plywood for $8k. They use 25 lifetime warranty shingles and did it all in one day with a crew of 15 people. To give a size of what they did, my house is 100ft. X 30ft. It was a very impressive sight to watch those guys knock it out.

[zeroskin]

the house looks like it should be fine even in a big wing or storm

there are bigger issues though
she is probably loosing heat and soon the squirrels will lift the corners to make it into attic
she should also have the top roof redone with heavy weight 1 inch ply to handle the storm loads you get up there

i know a crew that would do it cheap (and yes i know they do good work fast )
they did a re shingle on a 80x 40 for me last month with 20 year garantee shingles for only 2600


from what i can see what i would do is redo the ply wood on top roof and then reshingle the entire house (about 5-7000 bucks)

reshingling the top alone might work for a few years but that ply looks weak from pics



sources... im rehab houses and rent em out for living

[Flynnstone]

I didn't see it mentioned here so I'll add that as soon as you place new shingles over old, you void the warranty on the new shingles. Just something to consider.

[jayroget]

I am a self- employed contractor/remodeler. The re-roof does void any warranty. Cheapness is the sole reason this is ever done. Right now anywhere in NY you need a building permit for any new roof install. The building code inspector needs to actually walk the roof to feel for delaminating sheething due to moisture problems (not just leaks but condensation issues with heat and venting). As far as putting money into a new roof to sell, take into consideration if someone buys it they might have a color/style preference. In my opinion I would lower price to sell and let them worry about the roof. You could still get a few estimates and have them put in the real estate agents file. (maybe the new owner would want steel shingles or steel roofing) The building permit that the contractor would have to get would require a proof of insurance and would weed out the fly by nighters that could potentially rip you off. As far as shingles go, yes, shingling is easy and basic knowledge is all that is needed but when you have to step flash up against a wall and fash vent pipes and install edge vents and gable vents and ridge vents, proper nailing in these areas are key elements to whether a roof will leak or not, and also the area that you nail the shingle is key when nailing in any high wind area. Sorry for the long post and good luck with whatever you choose to do.

[arizonajack]

As far as putting money into a new roof to sell, take into consideration if someone buys it they might have a color/style preference. In my opinion I would lower price to sell and let them worry about the roof..

Agree.

The goal is to sell the house, not put money into it that you'll never get back.

[ChrisWNY]

Good points - roofs are not like bathroom and kitchen renovation, little to no return on investment. Having a few contractors check the roof out and provide estimates won't cost her a dime, and if the roof is structurally ok, there's no point wasting thousands on a tear-down and re-shingling. A few thousand $$$$ in seller's concessions if she can get near asking price wouldn't be the end of the world.

I was not aware that shingling over existing shingles would void the warranty of the new shingles, but that's good to know. When my own roof needs to be replaced in 20-30 years, I'll go with a tear-down and new shingles.

[ChrisWNY]

[UPDATE]

A contractor stopped over to check the roof (this contractor re-roofed the house in 2003, adding the 2nd layer of shingles). Both the upper and lower roofs were re-shingled in 2003...the lower is fine, no buckling or odd cosmetic issues going on. His explanation for why the upper roof is jacked up is likely due to the lack of venting through the attic (which is true, there is no ridge or gable vent). The lower roof escaped the problem because there's a huge attic entry inside the garage that has been left wide open, so plenty of airflow through there. He also mentioned that roofing shingle warranties have strings attached so numerous that it's almost impossible to throw a warranty claim against a roofing shingle manufacturer. Unless you use their recommended materials (whether it be their brand of roofing felt or a certain type of nails), there are a lot of "outs" that the manufacturers can take to avoid paying any warranty claims. Adding a 2nd layer of shingles to an existing layer is simply one of those many "outs".

At any rate, the contractor is stopping at her house again on Wed. to head up into the attic to inspect the trusses to make sure there are no additional structural issues. If things look structurally ok, the contractor stated that the roof is probably good for another 10-15 years. The next re-roofing job must involve a complete tear-down as well as proper venting installed. He quoted her on the venting (ridge vent, etc.) at ~$1500, but it may not be worth it if the inspector picks on the roof and decides the house needs a re-roof anyway (she'd still be stuck lowering her price to foot the cost for the buyer to install a new roof). She's getting more than one opinion, but figured she might as well go with the contractor who did the re-roof in 2003 as a first option...

[doubleeddy]

You also need to install a ridge vent with the re-roof

[jmac00]

now that we are on roof's (haha, pun intended)

has anyone ever installed a metal roof? whats involved, how do you order a metal roof

inquiring minds want to know