Has New York defined the term "Pistol Grip?"

[Exile Machine]

My company manufactures a product for the California firearms market that replaces the pistol grip on an AR-15 with something that is not considered a pistol grip under CA law. Despite having stricter laws than NY, CA's legislature at least clearly defined the term "pistol grip" so that alternatives could be designed and manufactured.

Does NY state law define pistol grip? I'd like to market the product in NY and the other AW ban states.

Is there some state regulating body where a manufacturer can inquire about the legality of a new product?

Thanks,
-Mark
Exile Machine LLC

[Jeff]

There is no definition or interpretation that I've ever seen.

I doubt you would get an interpretation from anyone. Even if you could get an interpretation from a DA, it's not their place to interpret law, it's a judge's.

NY also has no guidance regarding a Bullet Button like CA does.

[davejensen]

Does NY state law define pistol grip? I'd like to market the product in NY and the other AW ban states.

No. I have previously observed in my own legal research that N.Y. law contains no definition for "pistol grip." As you note, Cal. law defines "pistol grip" (very, very broadly and somewhat non-sensically) and it also defines "thumbhole stock."

I once looked into this issue at length when I wanted to register an H&K SL-8 (with a "thumbhole" style stock) in NYC. My question was whether the thumbhole stock was a "protruding pistol grip" (per the NYC Admin Code, but the Penal Law's ban on "assault weapons" uses the same language).

Basically -- my understanding of federal authorities is that under the "assault weapon" ban ATF took the view that replacing a separate pistol grip with a thumbhole stock still created a "pistol grip." (This is articulated in a Federal Register notice that was published in response to a comment received from the Brady Campaign. Unfortunately the antis have become involved in trying to curtail our rights by commenting on proposed rulemaking proceedings and trying to slide in brand new laws that were never passed, e.g. a ban on thumbhole stocks.) Now with regard to ATF's application of the sporting purposes test, they took the exact opposite view. This is why SR-9's and HK-911s were still importable (with thumbhole stocks) even after the import bans started in 1989.

In my case with NYC, I took the view that under either standard it was not a "pistol grip" because the SL-8 was designed for a thumbhole stock originally. License Division sent me back the registration form with "no pistol grip" written across the top. OK, whatever, at least they sent it back.

[Exile Machine]

That's kind of what I figured. CA is like that as well, their Dept. of Justice doesn't approve things, they just tell you what you can't have.

-Mark

[davejensen]

That's kind of what I figured. CA is like that as well, their Dept. of Justice doesn't approve things, they just tell you what you can't have.

-Mark

Actually I thought CA DOJ did approve things, as in you can send them samples and they will pass on whether they are so-called "assault weapons" under the various bans that have been passed in the state.

I was going to say that a difference is that there is no formal procedure in NY, but my understanding is that there's a state police guy in Albany you can call.

[Exile Machine]

Actually I thought CA DOJ did approve things, as in you can send them samples and they will pass on whether they are so-called "assault weapons" under the various bans that have been passed in the state.

I was going to say that a difference is that there is no formal procedure in NY, but my understanding is that there's a state police guy in Albany you can call.

You can send the DOJ compliance products, and manufacturers have, but they do not rule on approvals. I don't know of any AWB compliance product that has been approved by the DOJ.

Hammerheads have been sold into New York as well as the non-AWB states. We are recommending in the northeast AWB states to use Type I or Type II configurations:




to avoid the appearance of it being a pistol grip.

A popular config in CA is the Type III configuration:



but I'd avoid that in the northeast since you don't have the definition of pistol grip to fall back on and law enforcement might confuse that with a pistol grip.

-Mark
Exile Machine LLC

[Craig10114]

The NY AWB allows for us to have 2 "assault weapon" features on the AR, those include:

Bayonet Lug
Threaded Barrel
Flash Hider
Detachable Magazine
Pistol Grip
Collapsing Stock

With the ears of the bay lug trimmed off, a welded muzzle break, and a fixed stock its very easy to own the AR in NY. I can't imagine THAT many people are dieing to have a flash hider so badly as to give up the pistol grip.

[Bob]

The NY AWB allows for us to have 2 "assault weapon" features on the AR, those include...

The way NYS Penal Law is worded, it is a detachable magazine plus one feature.

[Craig10114]

The way NYS Penal Law is worded, it is a detachable magazine plus one feature.

correct. so when your all said and done you have 2 evil features on an ny rifle... a detachable magazine.. and a pistol grip.

if you nixed your pistol grip you could then only add a FH or a bayo lug

[Bob]

There is a subtle difference between what you're saying and what I'm saying.

Without a detachable magazine, you can legally have ALL of the features on the same gun. With a detachable magazine, you can only have one additional feature. The magazine is not one of the evil features. The magazine is what determines how many of the evil features you can have.

[Exile Machine]

correct. so when your all said and done you have 2 evil features on an ny rifle... a detachable magazine.. and a pistol grip.

if you nixed your pistol grip you could then only add a FH or a bayo lug

Collapsible stock...

You could also choose to have a threaded barrel, allowing you to try different compensators / flash hiders without needing to weld or pin the compensator on. This will give you more barrel choices as well, and without welding and pinning, you'll be better able to maintain the resale value of the barrel.

[BrowningNY]

From NYSRPA.org / Gun Laws part of what defines an assault weapon:
(ii)a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon

[JStarX7]

From NYSRPA.org / Gun Laws part of what defines an assault weapon:
(ii)a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon

Right, but NY has no case law that actually says what they consider to be a "grip that protrudes conspicuously". For example, during the Federal AWB, the ATF was generally OK with thumbholes stocks not being considered pistol grips, but Kommifornia considers them to be pistol grips.

[ddan24]

Thumbhole stocks are not "evil features" in NY.

[Exile Machine]

We're making these from polymer now. Thought I'd share some photos of the injection molding process. It's really quite fascinating.

Tooling (mold) for the Hammerhead. You can see the cavity that forms the outer shape of the Hammerhead about center of the image toward the right. Note cooling fluid lines running top and bottom vertically. The molten polymer material comes into the mold around 500 degrees F and the mold itself is so massive and gets so hot during molding that it has to cool down for hours before they can remove it to do another customer's part.


A newly formed Hammerhead, ready to be extracted from the mold.


Shop owner removes the rear insert. The insert holds cylinders that produce the threaded section and the anti-rotation hole as well as the cylindrical "cores" inside the part to help it cool evenly and make it more lightweight.


After the newly formed Hammerhead is ejected, it goes into a jig to have the threaded core section removed. This is a threaded steel cylinder that forms the threads and the largest core inside the Hammerhead. The product is still too hot to touch without special insulated gloves.


This is the hopper. Pellets of raw polymer material go in the hopper and are melted and forced into the mold by a large screw.


Here is the shop owner operating the machine. The timing of the injection, cooling, and extracting process is all controlled by a built-in computer. This guy's been in the plastics business for more than 30 years and mostly makes parts for the defense industry. They do a lot of polymer gun parts, magazine bodies and grip extenders. The shop has at least two dozen or more of these machines. They run three shifts 24/7.


After the Hammerhead has had its rear threaded core removed, an anti-shrink jig is placed between the tabs of the pistol grip mounting area (The jig hasn't been completed yet so for these samples they are using a bolt of the appropriate diameter, works almost as well and much cheaper). Polymer shrinks when it cools. If the tabs were not blocked in this manner, they would bow inwards and be very difficult to fit to the receiver. These Hammerheads are still too hot to touch. The big red bin at top of the image is filled with ice water. The parts go in there to cool. After removal from the ice water they can be handled with bare hands but remain very hot to touch for several hours afterward. The blacked out section covers a prototype of a future product I'm not ready to reveal yet.


-Mark
Exile Machine LLC