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Thread: Law on 80% receivers and making your own guns.

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    Default Law on 80% receivers and making your own guns.

    The ATF states that if you build a gun for your own use and NOT for sale or distribution, it is perfectly legal and the gun does not require a serial number as serial numbers are required by manufacturers with an FFL and an agreement with the federal government since we (most of us) are not fils and have no such agreement our self made guns require no serial.

    ok, great, so here is my question, how does this work in NYS? There is NOTHING in the new law or Ny old law that says I can not build my own gun. Nothing about serial numbers in NYS. BUT if I do legally build one, how can. Register it with no serial number? In California where all guns are registered you can build a gun and not register and be totally legal.

    same goes for 80% ak receiver flats.

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    You need to question the law makers and the NYSP. Unfortunately the NYSP was given the authority to determine what's legit and what's not.
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    OK well first - you don't need to register a long gun unless it as an "assault weapon" and if so, you can only register it if you possessed it on 01/15/2013.

    Second - you can attach a serial number to an already existant gun. (But you absolutely cannot remove a serial number.)

    Third - the mythical "80% receiver" is a product of the internet and hearsay. There is no federal law or regulation that says anything whatsoever about "80%." Unless someone has sent their "80% receiver" to the ATF Firearms Tech Branch and gotten a letter back saying that their design is not sufficiently finished and machined to count as a "firearm" you are taking a chance.

    Fourth - all guns are not registered in CA, just grandfathered "assault weapons" and (in theory) there is supposed to be a registry of all handguns.

    And fifth - you cannot legally build an AK in either CA or NY (unless it is "feature-less") and it does not matter whether you build it yourself or attach a serial number or don't attach a serial number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    OK well first - you don't need to register a long gun unless it as an "assault weapon" and if so, you can only register it if you possessed it on 01/15/2013.

    Second - you can attach a serial number to an already existant gun. (But you absolutely cannot remove a serial number.)

    Third - the mythical "80% receiver" is a product of the internet and hearsay. There is no federal law or regulation that says anything whatsoever about "80%." Unless someone has sent their "80% receiver" to the ATF Firearms Tech Branch and gotten a letter back saying that their design is not sufficiently finished and machined to count as a "firearm" you are taking a chance.

    Fourth - all guns are not registered in CA, just grandfathered "assault weapons" and (in theory) there is supposed to be a registry of all handguns.

    And fifth - you cannot legally build an AK in either CA or NY (unless it is "feature-less") and it does not matter whether you build it yourself or attach a serial number or don't attach a serial number.

    david thanks for your opinions but your wrong

    a 80 percent is just that... 80 percent or so complete
    they canot be made to fire without machining, and obviosly the feds agree because they allow transfer without ffl and allow interstate shipping


    also if you owned and machined the reciever prior to the enactment of this law you could add many features to your firearm
    and yes from lawyer you can add anything called a evil item and as many as you want because once new law is full in effect in 2014, you dont have to worry about past laws since it will be obsolete

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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post

    And fifth - you cannot legally build an AK in either CA or NY (unless it is "feature-less") and it does not matter whether you build it yourself or attach a serial number or don't attach a serial number.
    Can you please post where this answer is located? How do you register a lower with no serial number? How would you put it on the form? I would like to register a piece of aluminum, please.

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    To my knowledge it's not on the Q&A page, or at least it is not directy stated. (The page does say that you can't buy an "assault weapon" now.) The NY Penal Law prohibits the possession of "assault weapons" at 265.02. As of Jan. 15, 2013 two things happened. First, the definition of "assault weapon" changed to include 1-feature semi-auto's, effective immediately. Second, the legislature created a new exception to the definition for "AW's" that were lawfully possessed on the date the law was changed (Jan. 15) if they are registered within a year. The result: if you possess an "assault weapon" you are breaking the law unless you can show that you fall within that new exception. In terms of the "AW" definition and prohibition there is no distinction between who made the gun (you or a gun manufacturer).

    To register a gun that does not have a serial number you either register it without the serial number or you add a serial number. I once saw a handgun that had been sent back to the factory for a serial number so that it could be registered on a NY handgun license. I believe NYPD will register pre-1968 long guns without serial numbers, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    OK well first - you don't need to register a long gun unless it as an "assault weapon" and if so, you can only register it if you possessed it on 01/15/2013.

    Second - you can attach a serial number to an already existant gun. (But you absolutely cannot remove a serial number.)

    Third - the mythical "80% receiver" is a product of the internet and hearsay. There is no federal law or regulation that says anything whatsoever about "80%." Unless someone has sent their "80% receiver" to the ATF Firearms Tech Branch and gotten a letter back saying that their design is not sufficiently finished and machined to count as a "firearm" you are taking a chance.

    Fourth - all guns are not registered in CA, just grandfathered "assault weapons" and (in theory) there is supposed to be a registry of all handguns.

    And fifth - you cannot legally build an AK in either CA or NY (unless it is "feature-less") and it does not matter whether you build it yourself or attach a serial number or don't attach a serial number.

    Ok, apparently,you've been living in a cave.

    you can go online now and search for 80% ak receivers which are bent sheet metal receivers with no holes drilled and you can buy a jig and make them with a drill press.

    an 80% ar receiver also available, again, use a jig and a drill and you have a working receiver. Not sure why you think this is a legend.

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    so from reading this thread it's a good thing i didn't buy my buddies ak-74 last year that he built himself? lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ar15 View Post
    so from reading this thread it's a good thing i didn't buy my buddies ak-74 last year that he built himself? lol
    As long as it was in a legal configuration when you owned it, it would be no problem, as long as he added the required markings to the rifle before he sold it. (Going from shaky memory, those details are: City of manufacture, serial number, and maybe the name of manufacture? Not sure, but it must be marked when sold).
    Here's how it works:
    It is legal for you to produce a LEGAL firearm in your locality for your PERSONAL use. You can not make a gun that is not legal in the area it is being produced in, just because you're the one making it. The final product has to conform to all local, and state laws.

    If I make a single shot rifle for my personal use, it's legal, with or without a serial number, as long as I OWN IT.
    If I take a billet of aluminum, and machine an AR style lower out of it, then build it into a legal rifle FOR PERSONAL USE, it's legal as long as I own it.
    If I take an AR style forging, and machine it, it's legal.
    If I take a forged AR style lower with 80% of the work done already, and finish it, it's legal as long as it's FOR ME, and NOT to profit from.

    You can make ANY weapon you want, that IS LEGAL TO OWN, as long as you are making it for YOURSELF, and not to profit from it.
    That's the tricky part, you can not make a weapon with any intent to profit from it.
    Now, that's not to say you are prevented from selling it, it just means you can't make a gun with the INTENT of selling it. If you build a rifle from scratch, and later decide that you don't want it anymore, you can sell it, as long as it's marked correctly.

    If you make a rifle for yourself from scratch, then sell it, then make the same rifle and sell it, then do it again, and again, you will spend time if Club Fed for manufacturing firearms without a license.
    If you make a rifle, like it, keep it, and make another one, exactly the same, and keep that, you're golden, because you made them with the intent to keep them.
    I knew a machinist with 10 different AR lowers because he liked trying to improve things. The first one was a pretty much direct copy of his Colt. The second one he added a rear set screw for the take down pin spring, changed the flare on the mag well. The third one was just playing with 3D scroll work all over the lower. The thing is, every single one of those was a complete lower receiver, and 100% completely legal because he was making them for himself, just because he could.

    The ATF had made determinations on how much work has to be done to a receiver for it to be a legal receiver, and not just a hunk of metal with holes in it. They decided that for ARs, the buffer tube can be threaded, the mag well can be cut, and maybe the mag release milled, but that the fire control channel can NOT be milled, and has to be solid. It also cannot have any machine work done to where the trigger, sear, or safety pins will be. No divots to indicate the locations, or anything, it has to be a smooth side as far as the hole location goes.

    That's where the 80% number comes from. The ATF decides what is, and is not a receiver. If you are selling hunks of metal that are 81% of the way to being a receiver without the proper paperwork, you go to jail. If you take an 80% receiver, and do ANY WORK ON IT for someone else, you are manufacturing a firearm. The final owner has to be the one to do the machine/fitting/forming/whatever work to get it that last 20% to make it a complete receiver.

    I looked into the whole thing because I wanted to build rifles for my boys, and make them special by marking them with their names as the model, and their birthdays for a serial number.
    From my reading, that would be legal because I would NOT be profiting from the rifles, as they would be gifted to my sons when they turned 18.
    If I made them with the intent to sell them to my sons when they turned 18, it would be illegal.


    Just another project that will have to wait till this state sees nothing from me but my back on the way out. I'd rather spend the money on moving at this point.

    I'm not a lawyer, so take it for what it's worth, but that's my understanding after digging though regulations for hours, and researching on the web.


    Edit: And now, there's at least one source saying that building with intent to use it as a gift is illegal, because it would be distributed without intent to profit....... But then again, those guys aren't lawyers either, so tread carefully. Per the FAQ, it still seems legal to make it as a gift, since it would not be for sale. Meh, make your own calls to the Tech Branch, see what they say.

    Q: Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle?With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.[18 U.S.C. 922(o) and (r), 26 U.S.C. 5822, 27 CFR 478.39, 479.62 and 479.105]

    Source: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/gene...-manufacturing
    Last edited by vantrepes; 01-30-2013 at 06:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmyoungjr View Post
    You need to question the law makers and the NYSP. Unfortunately the NYSP was given the authority to determine what's legit and what's not.
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunsNBibles View Post
    The ATF states that if you build a gun for your own use and NOT for sale or distribution, it is perfectly legal and the gun does not require a serial number as serial numbers are required by manufacturers with an FFL and an agreement with the federal government since we (most of us) are not fils and have no such agreement our self made guns require no serial.

    ok, great, so here is my question, how does this work in NYS? There is NOTHING in the new law or Ny old law that says I can not build my own gun. Nothing about serial numbers in NYS. BUT if I do legally build one, how can. Register it with no serial number? In California where all guns are registered you can build a gun and not register and be totally legal.

    same goes for 80% ak receiver flats.
    NYS law doesn't cover so it cannot overwrite federal law. So I would say whatever the ATF says is what is ok today.
    NYSP do not know anything. They are victims like us of this nonsense legislation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeroskin View Post
    a 80 percent is just that... 80 percent or so complete
    they canot be made to fire without machining, and obviosly the feds agree because they allow transfer without ffl and allow interstate shipping
    Yes, that is the internet/hearsay understanding of "80% receivers." However, there is no provision of the US Code or the Code of Federal Regulations that establishes an "80% of the machining cuts" standard. Or any other standard. There has never been a ruling. The Firearms Tech letters that I have seen have never referenced "80%" - they just say that ATF has determined that the object under consideration does not qualify as a "firearm."

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    OK let me try to make this clear:

    Quote Originally Posted by vantrepes View Post
    The ATF had made determinations on how much work has to be done to a receiver for it to be a legal receiver, and not just a hunk of metal with holes in it.
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by vantrepes View Post
    That's where the 80% number comes from.]
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by vantrepes View Post
    The ATF decides what is, and is not a receiver.]
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by vantrepes View Post
    If you are selling hunks of metal that are 81% of the way to being a receiver without the proper paperwork, you go to jail.]
    Sort of. If ATF takes the position that what you are selling is sufficiently close to completion that it is a "receiver," then they prosecute you. But, if you have a letter from the Firearms Technology Branch saying that your object is not a receiver then it is much less likely that they come after you. Again, "80%" is not present in any law or regulation. The only way to get a determination on a partially machined receiver is to send it to ATF and get them to tell you whether or not it has crossed the threshold. Whatever that threshold is, they've never directly said. Their more recent letters have focused on the complexity of the remaining machining operations that remain to be done.

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    You're right Dave, the 80% number isn't written into law, it's an accepted standard set by the ATF. It's a ball park amount of work. Their "80% letters" look like this:
    http://www.quentindefense.com/downlo...0Non%20Gun.pdf
    They say what can, and can't be completed on the lower for it to be considered a "non-firearm". Their standard is about 80% complete, but which 80% is the question, so they have people send them in.
    In short, at this point, you are arguing that the term "80%" is not written into law, which is semantics. All of the "not completely machined hunk of metal that could be completed into a rifle" that I looked at buying made note of coming with an ATF letter of determination.
    Last edited by vantrepes; 01-31-2013 at 07:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcubinlinx View Post
    Can you please post where this answer is located? How do you register a lower with no serial number? How would you put it on the form? I would like to register a piece of aluminum, please.

    you can get serial number install by many 80 percent makers
    its then an assumed assualt weapon here
    to add your own im not sure you need ffl or not
    im also not sure how to register number

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    Quote Originally Posted by davejensen View Post
    Yes, that is the internet/hearsay understanding of "80% receivers." However, there is no provision of the US Code or the Code of Federal Regulations that establishes an "80% of the machining cuts" standard. Or any other standard. There has never been a ruling. The Firearms Tech letters that I have seen have never referenced "80%" - they just say that ATF has determined that the object under consideration does not qualify as a "firearm."
    so if there is no code written.... this is called legal!!!!!!!! call a lawyer and ask
    if its not a firearm, not a tabaco plant and not a bathtub of gin atf dont have jurisdiction really
    this is why you dont have to register lead dust collectors on air guns (air guns are not batf items)

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    Quote Originally Posted by meketrefe View Post
    .
    NYSP do not know anything. They are victims like us of this nonsense legislation.
    I don't know that the NYSP are Victims of this Legislation ..
    I can state with certainty that they will cause people to be Victims of this Legislation

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    I'm still trying to figure out how you register something without a serial number...... "I would like to register this aluminum paperweight, please"

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    Simple: You add a serial number of your choosing, or put "Home Built" as the manufacture, and "NA" for a serial number.
    They can either accept it, or reject it. If they do reject it, they will have to tell you exactly what is required to register it, and they haven't even figured that part out yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djcubinlinx View Post
    I'm still trying to figure out how you register something without a serial number...... "I would like to register this aluminum paperweight, please"
    It is not hard to register something without a serial number. A lot of antique firearms do not have serial numbers and they are registered in historical collections by type, description, any markings (dings, scratches) and pictures. The question you have to ask yourself is why you would try to register an 80% lower since it is not a firearm?
    I can't wait for the PRNY Government to pass a law that states "it shall be illegal and a Class A Felony to think about defying the government," then have somebody tell me that the law is constitutional until the supreme court rules on it.

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    Its pretty simple. Your name becomes the manufacturer(or what ever name you choose to call "your company") and you etch/stamp/scratch a 1 in the side of it and voila...firearm specific serial number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Embree Smith View Post
    I don't know that the NYSP are Victims of this Legislation ..
    I can state with certainty that they will cause people to be Victims of this Legislation
    I agree. That is why the more ''ammo' we collect about the many incongruences of this law the easier it is going to be to get this whole thing either amended or nulified. All we have to do is to continue to ask questions that do not have answers by the law, record the responses and pass them along to the lawyers and senators leading the charge.
    This law will not stand. keep faith.
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    This sounds like it would be a cool project to do after work some day.... If we weren't getting bent over by the state. I really wish I just bought an AR a long time ago. Im still hopeful this whole NYSAFE situation goes away.

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    How are you guys determining what is needed to be registered? To my knowledge not even the NYSP has determined how registration will be done yet.
    -David

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    So, to recap, if you manufacture a traitless firearm in NYS for personal use only, you're within the law and don't need to register the receiver with anybody? Or am I completely wrong? Article 265 is so confusing these days D:

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