Handling a pistol without an NYS permit: illegal?

[RochPersDef]

Only calls to your elected officials will do anything.

[ChrisWNY]

My in-laws are personal friends of the family of one of our two NYS Senators, won't name any names. May have the opportunity to have a discussion with this Senator toward the end of October...

[Darthgamer138]

I hope NY Law changes this policy, the pre-license pistol safety course should allow non-permit holders 21 and over to live fire, and demonstrate to the NRA instructor proper and safe handling of the firearm before obtaining a certificate for the course. Think of it this way, law-abiding citizens in pursuit of a pistol permit may receive their permits having NEVER fired or even handled a pistol. So they can walk off carrying a pistol having never held or fired one...

I do not agree with the 21 thing. If you want to get your permit when you are 21, and can already handle a pistol under supervision under 21, having to wait would be pointless. 18 perhaps as that is the age to buy any firearm.

[RochPersDef]

You still have to be 21 to buy a handgun though....

[Darthgamer138]

You still have to be 21 to buy a handgun though....

Correct (well, correct in NY). And when you turn 21 you will be ready. Why do you think I signed up for my pistol permit class a few months after I turned 20? So I got the first class when I was 21, 6 days after my birthday (and the next class available for anyone at all shockingly.) When I turn 21 I want my permit ASAP (well, I want my pistol ASAP, and NY has this laughable permit system so as such I want my permit ASAP). If I started the process when I was 21 I'd be at LEAST 22 before I walked home with a pistol.

[Benellinut]

Well I got a call back today from the SP Officer, here's what he told me. Per NYS law, it is NOT legal for anyone who does not have a pistol permit (outside the ages of 14 to 21 and under certain circumstances as stated in a prior post) to take "possession" of a handgun and there is no previsions written in the law that states there is any exceptions to allow it during any training courses.

He stated how he feels the laws are not well written and his comment to me was, "What constitutes possession? The law doesn't define "possession". Does possession also include firing a handgun during the taking of a course and under the direct supervision of an instructor?

He also stated the laws were, I'll call it "less the desirable in many ways." Such as, it's in direct conflict with NYS law for a judge to put any additional restrictions on a pistol permit such as only being allowed to carry during and to and from hunting or target shooting. Or a judge requiring anyone to complete any safety or instructional classes as an additional requirement which I agree with but as I told him, who's wants to challenge these in a court of law? With the time and expense no one wants to fight it. I wish someone would to set a case precedents or better yet push it to an opinion from the NYS Supreme Court for a final ruling. But the court wouldn't accept the case of restrictions many years ago and handed it back.

I told him I doubt if an officer would ever show up at a class during live fire, demand to see everyone's permit then press charges for anyone who didn't have a permit and those who allowed it. Not unless there was an underlying circumstance such as during the investigation of a firearm accident after the fact. My concern is a lawsuit if there was an accident and the liability insurance refused to cover it because it was "outside the law", that could be devastating to the instructor and his family. It would cost you tons of money just to defend yourself and it surely would takes years in the courts. Not worth the risk just for the sake of hold the classes.

Now my question is, is the Cortland County Judge aware of this? Well we would think he is or he wouldn't be judge. I can't say without checking that it still is the same requirement today as it was a few years ago when I was teaching the classes, but at that time the judge stipulated you must successfully complete the course and submit your certificate to the pistol clerk in the time frame of one year prior or within one year after receiving your permit. But how can someone complete the NRA Pistol Safety Course if they don't complete the live fire portion?

According to my understanding, the NRA states a student can only be issued a certificate if;
They complete the entire course
Pass the written test at the end
And then finally, only at the discretion of the instructor, the student has a comprehensive understanding of handgun safety and is competent, even if the written test is a passing score

I'll be letting the instructors I know personally what I learned today. I think we as a unit should also let the NRA know so that it is made clear to all NYS instructor by the NRA. Maybe it will light a fire under the NRA to challenge the law and get a ruling on this. As the officer agreed with me today, It doesn't make sense someone 14 to 21 can fire a handgun at a range without a permit but not someone older taking a certified class.

Please, post your thoughts! This is a good topic and those of us who are instructors need to unite with the NRA on this!

Guy Wilson

[OwnTheRide]

Just a quick note about speaking to a lawyer: a lawyer cannot tell you what will or will not happen if you do "X". A lawyer can only tell you their OPINION about what MAY happen. A lawyer's OPINION will not protect you from arrest, trial, and conviction, even if the lawyer's opinion is the "correct" interpretation of the law.

An attorney can only give you advice. Just like people on the internet. Now, hopefully the advice-giving lawyer is really good at reading legal documents - that is what MIGHT separate them from random Joe Blow on the internet. Having a Juris Doctorate does not say anything other than "this person attended school to study law".

Am I saying that Joe Blow's advice is better/equal/less valid than that of an attorney? No. I am saying that a lawyer's word is not the final say or final interpretation of a law. Don't forget that.

[JStarX7]

A lawyer's OPINION will not protect you from arrest, trial, and conviction, even if the lawyer's opinion is the "correct" interpretation of the law.

No, but it will provide a solid defense if you consulted an attorney and tried to adhere to the law. If you consulted Joe-Blow, Internet Dude Extraordinaire, not so much.

[RochPersDef]

And the average Joe on the internets cannot give legal advice. The lawyer can.

[RochPersDef]

Gary:

Thanks for making that call. I figured that was going to be the answer. My contact is also frustrated that even in an NRA class, with the instructor's handguns, a person cannot learn proper gun safety unless they have a permit. Heck, there is an exemption for competition (An NRA one BTW) but not for NRA Training. Go figure.

[ChrisWNY]

I do not agree with the 21 thing. If you want to get your permit when you are 21, and can already handle a pistol under supervision under 21, having to wait would be pointless. 18 perhaps as that is the age to buy any firearm.

I don't agree with it either, at 18 you can serve in the military and fight in combat, so a law-abiding 18 yr old should be able to obtain a pistol license. 21 is the minimum age for a pistol permit application, so for now any pre-licensing live-fire requirement would only be relevant for 21+, which was the only reason I referenced 21+ in that post.

[Darthgamer138]

I don't agree with it either, at 18 you can serve in the military and fight in combat, so a law-abiding 18 yr old should be able to obtain a pistol license. 21 is the minimum age for a pistol permit application, so for now any pre-licensing live-fire requirement would only be relevant for 21+, which was the only reason I referenced 21+ in that post.

Yes, but we were talking on how it should change. If NY insists that you can't OWN a pistol until 21 then you should be able to learn about them at 18.

[Tim1]

And the average Joe on the internets cannot give legal advice. The lawyer can.

What if the average Joe stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

[Darthgamer138]

What if the average Joe stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

Hey, I watch a fair amount of Law and Order...

[Saganaki]

Am I reading this wrong? Can I not legally handle a pistol during a pistol permit class since I'm 22? Isn't there a live fire requirement?

[ChrisWNY]

Am I reading this wrong? Can I not legally handle a pistol during a pistol permit class since I'm 22? Isn't there a live fire requirement?

You can't *legally* touch a pistol within NYS (21 and over) until you have a NYS pistol permit. There are SOME cases where exceptions are made (i.e. competitions, which allow out-of-Staters to shoot pistols in NYS), but those exceptions are few and far between. The NRA Basic Pistol course is supposed to have live fire safety training, some NRA instructors are being hit for signing off on the basic pistol class without live fire, it can come back to haunt them. CCW Applicants are supposed to take the pre-license pistol safety course, no live fire for that one.

[Darthgamer138]

Am I reading this wrong? Can I not legally handle a pistol during a pistol permit class since I'm 22? Isn't there a live fire requirement?

You are correct sir. Some NRA instructors actually take their classes over the state line to shoot.

[RochPersDef]

There is no requirement under state law for ANY kind of training or education prior to obtaining a NY permit. None. Each county has decided different ways.

ANY. NRA instructor that allows people to illegally handle a pistol in violation of state law is wrong.

[Holdover]

Mispost.

[chuck071]

I am not a lawyer. Does this mean if you have applied for a permit and are taking an NRA course you can handle and discharge pistols??




copied from 265.20 exemptions
7-b. Possession and use, at an indoor or outdoor pistol range located
in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization
organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small
arms or at a target pistol shooting competition under the auspices of or
approved by the national rifle association for the purpose of loading
and firing the same, by a person who has applied for a license to
possess a pistol or revolver and pre-license possession of same pursuant
to section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter, who has not been previously
denied a license, been previously convicted of a felony or serious
offense, and who does not appear to be, or pose a threat to be, a danger


to himself or to others, and who has been approved for possession and use herein in accordance with section 400.00 or 400.01 of this chapter; provided however, that such possession shall be of a pistol or revolver duly licensed to and shall be used under the supervision, guidance and instruction of, a person specified in paragraph seven of this subdivision and provided further that such possession and use be within the jurisdiction of the licensing officer with whom the person has made application therefor or within the jurisdiction of the superintendent of state police in the case of a retired sworn member of the division of state police who has made an application pursuant to section 400.01 of this chapter.

[Tifosi]

The way it reads, yes, as long as its conducted at a range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to foster proficiency in small arms or at a target pistol shooting competition

An NRA course conducted at a gun club (who are 'usually' incorporated and act toward conservation purposes if of the 'sportsmans' or 'rod and gun' variety. confirm first of course) likely will as would practice at a range for competition practice.

Bob's back 40 or 10 miles down that backroad at the private huntin' cabin ain't gonna cut it.

[chuck071]

Bob's back 40 or 10 miles down that backroad at the private huntin' cabin ain't gonna cut it.[/QUOTE]


I am just referring to the NRA courses. What Bob does on his back forty is Bob's business as far as I'm concerned.

[Darthgamer138]

by a person who has applied for a license to
possess a pistol or revolver AND pre-license possession

This AND is important. I knew about this. This is a separate thing you need to apply for (though it may use the same application.) "Pre-licence possession" is new and was just added. Someone had a scan on here of an application for it. They seem to have added that just because they realized "oops, how can they take a safety course and not touch a pistol?"

[Tifosi]

Toy gun, like the blue training ones they use in a few classes.
There are several out there that are all but identical to a real handgun exept they are plastic and cannot fire a projectile.
Or, in the case of some courses/classes, actual firearms that have been rendered unable to fire. (DEC uses simular for hunter safety courses for example)

Compressed air type guns (airsoft, BB, even splatball actually) could likely be used for the shooting portions as general safety and proper type use doesn't neccisarily require gun power projectiles to accomplish unless hearing the loud noise is a pre~requisite also.

[FishDude]

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