Saratoga Pistol Safety Course (complicated question)

**moadikum** · 01-13-2011, 04:41 PM

Hello everyone, first post here, so bear with me!

I'm just beginning the process of applying for a pistol permit, and as such, called the number for the Saratoga Pistol Safety Course. After several attempts to get through (unsuccessfully), I eventually got a hold of someone who informed me - "We have enough people for the courses to get us through to the Fall". Translation - This is going to seriously hold up my application process.

For a relatively conservative county like Saratoga, this is surprising... ANYWAYS, here's my question...

Is it worth writing to Judge Seibert (the judge who handles pistol permits), requesting that I be able to transfer a neighboring county's Safety Course into Saratoga? I called Schenectady, and they have slots available in February.

Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated!

**guygus3516** · 01-13-2011, 07:40 PM

all I know is that it is impossible to get a full carry there, don't pi$$ off the judge, ever

**Jeff** · 01-13-2011, 07:42 PM

Doesn't hurt to ask politely. Maybe if you take the other county class and have yourself scheduled for the Saratoga class he would be receptive to the idea.

**Phlyan Pan** · 01-13-2011, 08:37 PM

I would call the people at the pistol permit office first. They've generally been helpful here even though this is not a full carry county. My impression is that the judge is the one who is anti full carry. The pistol permit office people are just doing their jobs.

So give them a call, tell them your scenario and see if they've ever done anything like that before.

**guygus3516** · 01-13-2011, 09:25 PM

can't hurt, I guess

**moadikum** · 01-14-2011, 12:38 AM

My post wasn't about the possibility of being granted "Full Carry". It's about transferring the course from Schenectady to Saratoga.

**Phlyan Pan** · 01-14-2011, 10:00 AM

I think he was trying to say not to rock the boat because it's already a no carry county so you don't want to make any waves or you might not get anything.

I maintain, just call the permit office and see what they say. Ultimately they're not the ones making the decisions and they've always been friendly to me.

**moadikum** · 01-18-2011, 02:46 AM

I will be petitioning the courts, and will also be raising the issue through Chris Gibson's office. Bureaucracy has no right to stand between people and their Constitutional rights.

**Phlyan Pan** · 01-18-2011, 09:39 AM

What did the folks at the office tell you?

**moadikum** · 01-18-2011, 10:47 AM

They said that you need to take the safety course in Saratoga. That would mean waiting until the Fall. I called the Schenectady gun safety course, and they have openings on Feb 3.

I'm on the local Republican committee, so I will be dealing with this issue through formal channels. I'll keep you guys posted on my progress.

**Phlyan Pan** · 01-18-2011, 12:31 PM

Please do. I'm pushing my fiancé to go for her permit and I also have a good friend who wants to get his here in Saratoga county so I'm interested to see what develops.

**moadikum** · 01-21-2011, 02:20 PM

After writing a well thought out letter, I received a response with basically one sentence... "Request Denied". I will be talking with a senior representative of Chris Gibson very shortly about this, and will let you know what they suggest / offer.

**XIDshooter** · 01-22-2011, 11:24 PM

I took my Pistol course last Jan ('10)for Schenectady Co. and half the class was for Saratoga Co.
The class was Jan, 5th, 6th, and 12th 2010 at the Guan Ho Ha fish and game club.

**c191145cal** · 01-26-2011, 08:06 PM

Filled until fall 2011?

Convenient.

Is the safety course, a NRA approved course?

If so, then why does it matter where it is taken?

Further what if said course in the county was filled until Fall 2015.

Or, for the sake of argument what if you could only practice our first amendment after taking a sensitivity course, but wait that course is filled too, until the fall of 2011. So keep your mouth shut, until then.

Does anybody see a pattern?

**kevinp** · 03-17-2011, 06:58 PM

Interesting article here:

Saratoga County Surrogate's Court judge Harry W. Seibert to retire in December

moadikum, any update on your situation?

**guygus3516** · 03-17-2011, 07:45 PM

I actually met Judge Seibert recently, by chance, and he seemed like a very nice man. In my situation he was a bit coarse on written paper. Maybe he is getting soft? Lame duck. I read an article about someone who was going to run for his seat. He's Republican I think? I don't know his stance on guns.

**guygus3516** · 03-17-2011, 07:46 PM

I don't know if Seibert is the only issueing judge??

**2BRKnot2B** · 03-21-2011, 09:10 AM

If you don't know, you had better find out before you vote for him. Don't ask him specifically if he supports the 2A. Ask, instead, if he agrees that NYS PL 400 allows for an issuing officer to restrict carry. If he says yes, he ought to call Orleans County Jude James Punch, who disagrees. However, Judge Punch believes that if someone needs require restrictions, then he won't issue the permit. This doesn't mean he agrees with me, just that he knows my position, and that of the founders in regards 2A. I sent him about 10 pages of stuff, referred him to Heller, and McDonald, Shuttlesworth/Staub, and other rulings in which judges stated 2A is not able to be infringed. One thing we need in NYS is a reference as to what a reasonable time frame is. If the county doesn't offer enough classes, attend the county board meetings and ask local county board members to up the money(ies) to the authorities who give the course, or to allow more people to be able to give the course. Go to the gun store on Rt. 9 in, or just north of Clifton Park near Round Lake. Ask them about whether there is something more you can do.

What we did here in Orleans County was bring a lawsuit against the judge. He got the message & retired. It seems your judge already is retiring, so nothing may change. Seibert just issued a permit to my daughter who took both the NRA course, and the local course. It took her almost a year to get her permit. You might want to tell Seibert about the Shuttlesworth decision, and note that if the permit isn;t issued in a timely manner you are willing to go to the SCOTUS to get the permit system overturned. I wouldn't try to ask any help from NRA< or NYSR&P, as they seem to be for the permit system as a "Common Sense" effort to make gun owners seem law compliant. Problem is, if the law is unconstitutional, they don;t seem willing to go to court to fight it. I'm not sure why, as their bylaws require them to protect the whole of the constitution, but the 2A in particular. Perhaps if we let them know we are aware of this it will change their tune. Perhaps even simply letting them know that you intend to do it, with, or without them, they might jump on the bandwagon so they get some of the credit. Imagine someone doing this on their own, and NRA gets none? They'd be shown to be unnecessary, and they'd have annual members dropping like flies. At least, that's my theory. As it is, many don't join because of NRA's current policies.

A second thing we can do is let it out that we are willing to be board members, and have our names included on the back side of the form where you can fill in the names of others who you might wish to see on the board.

**kevinp** · 03-21-2011, 10:23 AM

I have moved to Saratoga from out of state and continually shocked by this kind of bureaucratic obstruction and harassment of law abiding gun owners.

I am in the same boat - about to start my pistol permit process in Saratoga. The irony is that I am a certified NRA Basic Pistol Safety course instructor - i.e. I am certified by NRA to teach the same course that I am required to take.

Is it possible to sue the county before beginning the permit process? Or does one have to attempt to file the application (minus the safety course), get rejected and then sue about the safety course delays? I don't mind rocking the boat for myself if it benefits other applicants in the future. This obstructionism has nothing to do with gun safety - it has everything to do with reducing the number of gun owners and thereby their political influence. And if we put up with it, that is the way it shall stay.

**RochPersDef** · 03-21-2011, 11:16 AM

Kevin:

If you are indeed an NRA Certified Instructor for the NRA Basic Pistol, then that certification supercedes the student certificate

**kevinp** · 03-21-2011, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by RochPersDef

If you are indeed an NRA Certified Instructor for the NRA Basic Pistol, then that certification supercedes the student certificate

Thanks, Dave. I checked the credentials. The wallet card says that I am an instructor for Certified Pistol and the framed certificate says that I am an NRA Certified Instructor ... authorized to teach the following basic courses: Pistol

Of course, I don't know if Saratoga County will see it that way.

**kevinp** · 04-03-2011, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by kevinp

Of course, I don't know if Saratoga County will see it that way.

And they don't. I wrote a letter to Judge Seibert, enclosing my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor credentials, asking that I be allowed to waive the course. He wrote back a single line saying that my request was denied, without providing any explanation.

I am now pondering my options.

**2BRKnot2B** · 04-05-2011, 01:42 PM

Kevin, first try a 'pro se' to the judge, which it seems you did. If there is another judge in the county ask for him/her to review. If no other judge, then you may ask for change of venue, if it is actualy a good case to be heard. In fact, I would go after the whole pistol permit process, and the system in general. I'm sure if you have the right lawyer, and a good case that S.C.O.P.E. would be willing to donate some money toward the cause. I would make sure I was a SCOPE member, first. Join now if you intend to do something in the future. Join whether you will, or not. If nYSR&P wants to get involved, take the help, but don't take their advice. Only take the advice of your lawyer. I wish we could get someone to do this pro bono, but it seems there are very few willing. It is costly, in time, and travel, which is understandable. However, if they'd give p their time, I'm sure someone would be willing to chip in for the rest. If not, and they win, they can always use their win as good advertising.

**moadikum** · 08-27-2011, 02:28 PM

Just an update....

Finally received my pistol permit in Saratoga County this week, after roughly 5 1/2 months. Of course, it's "Hunting / Target".

Kevin's experience echoes my own when I asked to take the safety class in Schenectady County (which had no waiting period). One line response, "Request Denied".

Would people sit idly by if there was a "voting class" that was required before casting a ballot? Personally, I'm far more fearful of uninformed voters than I am of dumb firearm owners...

**SRV1** · 08-27-2011, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by kevinp

And they don't. I wrote a letter to Judge Seibert, enclosing my NRA Basic Pistol Instructor credentials, asking that I be allowed to waive the course. He wrote back a single line saying that my request was denied, without providing any explanation.

I am now pondering my options.

Eff'm. Hope the bastard gets a heart attack and croaks.

James