Need help with future AR15 project.

[harleyhunter]

Hey Everyone,

I'm looking to build an AR 15 in .223 Rem. I want to use it for coyote hunting. I am fasinated by snipers and there skill. I want to build an AR15 that looks and shoots great. I do know I want to top it with a good scope for low light conditions (hunt mostly at night with red spot light) and have it rest on a bipod mounted to a lower rail or something like that, have a butt stock that is adjustable in length with the pull of the lever. I have no ideas what NY laws allow or don't allow on doing a project like this and also have no clue on what part or parts are needed to make such rifle.

Please excuse my ignorance, any and all help is welcomed.

-Sam

[Phlyan Pan]

The adjustable stock is out. That's a no-no in New York unless you want to spend the cash on a pre-ban lower.

What type of budget do you have and what types of range do you need to be able to cover?

[harleyhunter]

No clue on budget yet. How much can a pre ban butt stock be? Also ranges will be from as close as a coyote can come out at you to no more then 200 yrds. most likely.

-sam

[scottyb]

I am pretty sure the weapon has to be preban, not the stock. But I could be wrong.

[aveisone]

In order to have any "evil" features including, but not limited to, a telescoping or folding stock, the lower receiver must be made pre 1993. You won't need a retractable stock for hunting anyway.

I would get a nice 16 or 20" heavy barrel on any upper & lower with a match grade trigger. These guns are very accurate and with a smooth trigger they are amazing. Definitely read and understand the assault weapons ban before you start your build. It can be a little confusing and doesn't make much sense. Violate it and get caught and you won't be owning anymore weapons, voting, or serving as a juror.

[harleyhunter]

I know I don't need a telescoping stock I just want one cause I like the whole tactical sniper look to it. Like I said earlier I want functional but also want a certain look as well. Is there any source you guys can recommend to start getting these parts including pre ban stock. I keep hearing about pre ban lower but how about upper. Is there any regulations?

-Sam

[scottyb]

The lower is considered the weapon and is the only thing that needs to be preban to allow for "evil" features such as, but not limited to, collapsible stock, bayonet lug. The only real restriction on upper assemblies is barrel length, it can't be a SBR in accordance with the ATF rules and it can't have the bayonet lug or a threaded barrel or a flash hider unless it is on preban lower.

I think I got it all.

[Gunner57]

Originally Posted by scottyb

The lower is considered the weapon and is the only thing that needs to be preban to allow for "evil" features such as, but not limited to, collapsible stock, bayonet lug. The only real restriction on upper assemblies is barrel length, it can't be a SBR in accordance with the ATF rules and it can't have the bayonet lug or a threaded barrel or a flash hider unless it is on preban lower.

I think I got it all.

At the risk of starting a "runaway train" here, I must respectfully disagree. While I admit that is pretty confusing to figure out all the restrictions, I think it is clear that in order to truly be classified as preban, the rifle must have left the factory prior to 9/13/94 as a COMPLETE WEAPON. The simple fact that a lower may have been manufactured prior to the ban does not truly qualify it as preban.

Here's a link right from the Olympic Arms site...
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?opt...d=28&Itemid=42

The key quote here is: "Semiautomatic pistols and rifles assembled after September 13, 1994, and possessing two or more of the features listed in [Section 921 (a) (30), Title 18 U.S.C.] are semiautomatic assault weapons as defined. The fact that the receiver may have been manufactured prior to September 13, 1994, is immaterial to classification of a weapon as a semiautomatic assault weapon. Additionally, payment or non-payment of excise tax is also immaterial to classification of a firearm as a semiautomatic assault weapon."

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by Gunner57

At the risk of starting a "runaway train" here, I must respectfully disagree. While I admit that is pretty confusing to figure out all the restrictions, I think it is clear that in order to truly be classified as preban, the rifle must have left the factory prior to 9/13/94 as a COMPLETE WEAPON. The simple fact that a lower may have been manufactured prior to the ban does not truly qualify it as preban.

Here's a link right from the Olympic Arms site...
http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?opt...d=28&Itemid=42

The key quote here is: "Semiautomatic pistols and rifles assembled after September 13, 1994, and possessing two or more of the features listed in [Section 921 (a) (30), Title 18 U.S.C.] are semiautomatic assault weapons as defined. The fact that the receiver may have been manufactured prior to September 13, 1994, is immaterial to classification of a weapon as a semiautomatic assault weapon. Additionally, payment or non-payment of excise tax is also immaterial to classification of a firearm as a semiautomatic assault weapon."

Huh. Maybe I am wrong. That has always been my understanding.

[Gunner57]

I think that most people believe that only the lower counts, but unfortunately, by the strict letter of the law, nope.

[scottyb]

Nevermind, after going back and re-reading your post, I understand what you are saying and I agree. The lower would have had to come off a complete weapon that was assembled prior to the AWB. I wasn't saying that lower had to be made prior to the ban, I meant that the lower had to be considered "preban".

The semantics of what makes the lower the preban is not what I was discussing

As far as the lower being considered "the weapon", I was referring to the it being the serialized part and controlled as a weapon, requiring the proper ATF and NY paperwork to be filled out upon initial sale as opposed to a upper that is can be freely bought and sold as a part without the need for an FFL or paperwork.

Or this, if you can prove it,

From Olympic Arms site:

"Fred Foosball buys a complete semiautomatic assault rifle kit in August 1994, but doesn't assemble it until September 14, 1994. Is it a legal pre-ban rifle. Yes it had all (and I mean ALL) of the pieces to make a complete SAW on The Date. BATF accepts this as a complete pre-ban rifle.

[harleyhunter]

Ok. Now I'm even more confused then I started. LOL. Where do I start and what is the basic part list for what I'm looking for.

[RDFABSREP]

Originally Posted by harleyhunter

Ok. Now I'm even more confused then I started. LOL. Where do I start and what is the basic part list for what I'm looking for.

As stated above, if you really feel you need a telescoping stock (legally) you need to have ONLY a pre-ban lower receiver. Technically, the lower is the weapon; nothing else.

Do you plan on building the upper, or just the lower? I just took my recent build out to the range today and was very, VERY impressed. She's definitely a shooter to say the least. The parts you need to build the lower and attach a pre-built upper are:

*Lower receiver
*Parts Kit
*Complete stock (which may be broken down in to a stock purchased seperately from the buffer tube, which is what I did)
*Pre-assembled upper
*Sights (scope, iron, etc.)
*Basic cleaners/lubrication products

The lower build process is easy, there's a great how-to on AR15.com and before you know it, you'll be done and feening for another.

[mchasal]

Since you stated you just want the collapsible stock for looks, it is generally considered legal to have a collapsible stock on a post-ban rifle as long as that stock is pinned in place and doesn't actually move. That gets you the look you are going for without having to track down a pre-ban lower/rifle.

And just to pick nits, the law quoted above is from the Federal AWB, which is now gone. The one you have to worry about is the NYS AWB which is very similar to the federal one, but not identical. The relevent section of the NYS law is this:

(v) a semiautomatic rifle, a semiautomatic shotgun or a semiautomatic
pistol or any of the weapons defined in paragraph (d) of this
subdivision lawfully possessed prior to September fourteenth, nineteen
hundred ninety-four.

Article 265 - Penal Law - Firearms and Other Dangerous Weapons

The whole whether it had to be a complete rifle thing is the source of much confusion and debate. I don't think there's a clear answer since NYS is not in the habit of clarifying these things.

[Brad@AST]

While the normal adjustable stock looks kinda cool, it does not really offer that great of a cheek weld, and when it comes to punching paper or woodchucks comfort and consistency are great things to have.

Rock River Arms has a new stock out called the operator stock. It is available in both adjustable and fixed length versions. It has a great cheek weld and is not heavy SOB like some others that are out.

You could easily do a post ban build and achieve the look and accuracy you are after. This would also allow you to spend that money you saved on a post ban lower in areas that would benefit you and the build more, ie better barrel, other hard parts and optics.

[ddan24]

If the lower was manufactured before 9/13/94 then any complete rifle that is built upon it can contain more then the maximum number of evil features in NYS. It's as simple as that. The only part in question is the lower. The rest of the parts can be post-ban. Some townships, villages, cities, etc have local laws regarding "AR Style" firearms as well as magazine capacity (pre-ban or post-ban). I would also look into that for your area. I believe legal hunting has a 5 round magazine limit in NYS. I would assume that would apply for coyotes as well.

If you're looking to hunt coyote, I would consider a bolt action .223 rilfe with a decent scope. The AR/m4 platform in my mind would be more for hunting packs of coyote and up much closer to you. Let me just shoot this out there... you're looking at ~$300 minimum + optics for a decent bolt action and ~$600 minimum + optics for a simple/basic AR. My AR was roughly $1200 (so far -it never ends-) and I wouldn't even use it to hunt coyotes... zombies yes, coyotes... no.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[Gunner57]

Originally Posted by ddan24

If the lower was manufactured before 9/13/94 then any complete rifle that is built upon it can contain more then the maximum number of evil features in NYS. It's as simple as that. The only part in question is the lower. The rest of the parts can be post-ban. Some townships, villages, cities, etc have local laws regarding "AR Style" firearms as well as magazine capacity (pre-ban or post-ban). I would also look into that for your area. I believe legal hunting has a 5 round magazine limit in NYS. I would assume that would apply for coyotes as well.

If you're looking to hunt coyote, I would consider a bolt action .223 rilfe with a decent scope. The AR/m4 platform in my mind would be more for hunting packs of coyote and up much closer to you. Let me just shoot this out there... you're looking at ~$300 minimum + optics for a decent bolt action and ~$600 minimum + optics for a simple/basic AR. My AR was roughly $1200 (so far -it never ends-) and I wouldn't even use it to hunt coyotes... zombies yes, coyotes... no.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Well, as long as we're "picking nits", where exactly does it CLEARLY state that the only part in question is the lower?

You are correct that the maximum capacity of the magazine can only be 5 rounds, unless it is rimfire. That's why some guys opt for the Ruger 10/22 magnum. They can have 10 in the mag and one inthe pipe in case they get attacked by a pack!

[VTLO910]

I believe the MagPul PRS Stock would meet his needs and still be legal.

[darkvibe]

Is weight a concern? A nice varmint gun with a fixed stock might suit you but it'll be heavier than a gun with a thinner barrel.

Are you dead set on an AR over another style like a bolt gun?

[scottyb]

Originally Posted by VTLO910

I believe the MagPul PRS Stock would meet his needs and still be legal.

I am not familiar with this stock. Are these considered legal without modification?

[ddan24]

Originally Posted by Gunner57

Well, as long as we're "picking nits", where exactly does it CLEARLY state that the only part in question is the lower?

You are correct that the maximum capacity of the magazine can only be 5 rounds, unless it is rimfire. That's why some guys opt for the Ruger 10/22 magnum. They can have 10 in the mag and one inthe pipe in case they get attacked by a pack!

Are you being serious or joking? I hope it's the latter.

I'm sure you are familier with where a serial number is located on an AR-15. This is the only "regulated" item of this firearm. "Regulated" as in if you're purchasing it from a business they must check to make sure you're a good little boy and haven't been robbing local gas stations. Just as other firearms, the actual part that is regulated containts the serial number. Think of the lower receiver as the actual gun and the rest (upper, stock, etc) as accessories. Same goes for AK-47, Ruger 10/22, and any other rifle in the lovely state of NY.

Think of this for example... You purchase a complete AR rifle. You remove everything besides the lower receiver. You add all new parts to the receiver.... it's still the same rifle according to NYS and Federal regulations (that is if you follow the NYS AWB and comply with the number of evil features).

[Gunner57]

Originally Posted by ddan24

Are you being serious or joking? I hope it's the latter.

I'm sure you are familier with where a serial number is located on an AR-15. This is the only "regulated" item of this firearm. "Regulated" as in if you're purchasing it from a business they must check to make sure you're a good little boy and haven't been robbing local gas stations. Just as other firearms, the actual part that is regulated containts the serial number. Think of the lower receiver as the actual gun and the rest (upper, stock, etc) as accessories. Same goes for AK-47, Ruger 10/22, and any other rifle in the lovely state of NY.

Think of this for example... You purchase a complete AR rifle. You remove everything besides the lower receiver. You add all new parts to the receiver.... it's still the same rifle according to NYS and Federal regulations (that is if you follow the NYS AWB and comply with the number of evil features).

Well, actually, it was the former. I'm not an attorney, never played one on tv and hell, I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but I have researched this quite a bit and no two people ever have the same interpretation. I know quite a few LEO's and have quizzed all of them. Every answer is different.

When Pataki broke his word an put our AWB in place in 2000, he claimed he was mirroring the Federal ban, however there are some subtle differences in the wording.

For instance, with regards to preban, "manufactured" was changed to "possession". Does that mean that YOU needed to possess it prior to 1994? I beleive that is SCOPE's position.

Everyone is free to their own interpretation and can do what they want. I've decided that the only preban AR's I buy are Colt. Why? Because they only sold complete rifles and they all had flash suppressors. Thus, they had two "evil" features and can be called assault weapons (at least by the old federal standard).

[Undeader]

I'm so confused... Now I don't know if my AR is legal... What do you guys think?

Pre-Ban Essential Arms Lower
BCG Upper with Flash Suppressor
Magpul Collapsible stock..
Magpul pistol grip
Pre-Ban 30 round magazine

[Phlyan Pan]

Originally Posted by harleyhunter

I know I don't need a telescoping stock I just want one cause I like the whole tactical sniper look to it. Like I said earlier I want functional but also want a certain look as well.
-Sam

If you're so obsessed with the "sniper" look, why are you even looking at an AR? The classic sniper weapon is the bolt action rifle. Most people that I've heard of who want their ARs for long range work use an A2 style stock because it has better cheek weld and more stability.

And for what it's worth, if you're looking for a rifle to hunt coyotes with, and you're thinking 200m or less is your maximum range, any off the shelf AR will shoot that without much problem. No need to look for special barrels or the like. Maybe an aftermarket trigger, but that just makes it easier to shoot, doesn't make the gun inherently more accurate.

[harleyhunter]

I currently hunt coyote with my Savage 340D in .222 cal. I want something more tactical looking. So lets see if I have this right... I need a pre-ban lower, I have to permanetly place the telescope stock, and can choose any upper as long as it has a flat top for optics and rail on bottom of barrel for a bipod, I will need a clip that hold no more then 5 rounds and .Is that all correct?

If I get a .223 barrel I can only shoot .223 but if I get a 5.56 NATO barrel I can shoot both .223 and 5.56. Is that also correct?