Are you really concealed?

[RochPersDef]

Now, something to think about:

Concealment. How many of you look at yourselves in the mirror to determine if you are printing (gun showing through your carry cover) or not? How efficient are you with your concealment clothing? I've talked to a few people that think it's OK if someone else thinks you are carrying. They think that is a good offense. Kind of like: "Hey, I know that you think I have a gun on me, so you had better behave, right?"

Not really.

Now, in the grand scheme of things, that may be OK. Most criminals have said that the worst fear is a victim that might fight back with a handgun.

I have news for you, most predatory people will assess you in a few seconds to decide if you are going to be their next meal ticket. If they think you may fight, they probably will move on to someone else. But what if they see you as an obstacle or hindrance to their mission? Guess who may be taken out of the scenario first? YOU if the bad guy determined that you had something on you. If you look like a cop, or a soldier, or just plain someone that may get in their way, you could very well be the first target.

Try this idea: Keep reminding yourself that your concealed handgun is your secret. Kind of like super powers. You cannot tell anyone that you actually possess this awesome power. No one should know unless you trust them implicitly or they are a bad guy. That's it. Dress to blend in, not stand out. Do not let your carry gun print or become visible in any way. It has to stay hidden to be effective.

Being coy or inadvertent by 'accidentally-on-purpose' allowing your gun to either be seen or to allow someone to think that you are carrying, for no real reason at all, is just plain reckless on your part.

Here's a scenario: You are with your friend (whom you have told that you carry), in line, at the bank. You are wearing your bestest GLOCK hat and your GLOCK long sleeve shirt under your favorite 'adventurer' vest. Some bad ass comes in the place, tries to be subtle while threatening the teller with a hidden gun, and proceeds to rob the bank. You are doing your best to blend in with everyone as you move to a place that may afford you a tactical advantage (cover) and your buddy, who has not really correctly understood the idea of you carrying a concealed handgun, turns to you and says in a loud and panicky voice: " YOU HAVE THE GUN! DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!!"

Normally, you may have still been able to hide, as your buddy only said this loudly, but your clothing as well could be the magnet that attracts the bad guy's attention. So much for blending in.

I do not say that there is a perfect way to carry concealed, but there are better ways. Look at how you dress, and what you do during the day. Some people make the mistake of trying to dress the same when they carry, but you actually have to fit your style of dress and the method of carry to the gun. If your favorite way to dress is the sleek, lycra, stretchy pant style, then you will not be able to conceal anything bigger than a straw.

More to come.........

[RonLauinger]

Good read Dave, What I see too is guys who are always 'touching' or re-adjusting their gun, or they only carry the gun and none of it's supportive gear (Extra rounds or magazines, flashlight, extra batteries for the flashlight, etc..)

[RochPersDef]

I can usually spot someone carrying. Although I was trained to see the signals people give off when they carry that the average person does not see, most times it is not too difficult.

As I said, if everyone did a mirror check, they would probably see what some others see.

They also do not realize that the gun by itself is not the whole picture. Extra mags, a flashlight, OC spray, are essential items as well.

[mikecentola]

Great Information! Thanks

[BULLDOG]

ROCH you are correct that why i do not wear anything advertising any gun mfg or hats expressing that i am a shooter or an armed person. reason being if the SHTF guess who the BG is going to take out first anyone showing that he is either a LEO or a citizen with a gun right or what ? ;D

[RochPersDef]

Heck, even a 'look' is enough. I had to learn to study people and keep a neutral look to my face. I got accused of intimidating someone - and I was not even trying !!!!

[mikecentola]

I don't carry now, and my wife tells me to stop staring down those people all the time hahah. I don't do it on purpose... I'm just a people watcher.

[hacker15]

Originally Posted by RochPersDef

I can usually spot someone carrying. Although I was trained to see the signals people give off when they carry that the average person does not see, most times it is not too difficult.

As I said, if everyone did a mirror check, they would probably see what some others see.

They also do not realize that the gun by itself is not the whole picture. Extra mags, a flashlight, OC spray, are essential items as well.

Agreed - you can usually spot the person carrying - unless they're used to it, do it every day, know the 'rules' and know what others are looking for. Most career criminials know just how to carry without giving the fact away. Some gangbangers just love to 'print' their guns - shows just how big a hammer they think they swing.

[grahamstein]

Good information, there are sometimes though that I feel I just can't find a way not to print. This is usually only a problem if I am carrying my xd service or something larger.

Good to see you over here hacker.

[hacker15]

Originally Posted by grahamstein

Good information, there are sometimes though that I feel I just can't find a way not to print. This is usually only a problem if I am carrying my xd service or something larger.

Good to see you over here hacker.

Wait 'till I bring some of my jokes along! :

[BULLDOG]

I AGGREE WITH MIKECENTOLA " im a girl watcher i m a girl watcher here comes one now" i mean a people watcher too ha ha watch for the foxes that are packing heat to ;D

[RochPersDef]

You have to pick a method of carry that virtually eliminates the mere indication of a gun. I know, sometimes it's tough, but you can do it without compromising your wardrobe stylings......

ladies: It's all about accessories, right?

[RochPersDef]

So, I was in Penfield and saw a guy today with a t shirt covering his paddle holster with an XD 4" in it.

How do I know, you ask? The grip and rear of the slide were very pronounced profile wise. I also saw a lot of people looking at him too....Wonder if the coppers got called? No that they should as he was 'technically' not breaking the law - it WAS concealed.

However, although I knew what it was by experience, I wonder what others thought it was? A big friggin pager? An insulin pump? A small 4 cylinder engine on his hip?

Goes to show.......not everyone knows what they need to know...

[Bree]

I don't advertise my guns. I try to keep them under cover as much as possible. I don't want trouble. I don't want aggravation. I even carry concealed when I can open carry as in PA where I have an LTCF allowing me to do both.

That said, if the bad guy reads me... so be it. I try to be as aware of him as he is of me... maybe even moreso!! The reality is that I am prepared to defend myself with force if necessary.

The BG should really ask himself... Do I really want to do this right here, right now, with this person, who if I make even the slightest mistake may very well end my reign as Bad Guy extraordinaire? Best move... ride on partner.

Sometimes the read of the gun doesn't say shoot me first. It says... Ride on and live another day. Happens all the time in open carry states. No reason why it isn't happening in CCW states as well.

The bottom line for me is that in NY concealment is the law and I follow the law lest I lose my right to carry at all.

[RonLauinger]

Let's remember also,

When a BG targets someone, they are looking for an easy target,,, as well as a target that may reward the BG with some kind of $$, whether it be Cash or items (watches, necklaces -- and now they are also targeting drivers licenses and other items that can be used or sold to offer someone a false ID),,,

ALSO... they know that a pistol can bring some real good money on the streets,,, Alot of todays carry guns can bring upward of $500 on the streets, and BG's don't care where they came from....

With this said,, if you were a BG, would you target someone that might have $15-$20 in their wallet? or someone who is carrying a gun?

Because of this threat, which is escalating each month,,, you would think that people would learn to carry the right way, as to not advertise this great victory for the BG,,, but unfortunately, most people think they will never be a statistic so they never train to win,, heck, they don't even train, and most those who do train, train wrong, MAKING MOST PEOPLE WHO CARRY GUNS... EASY TARGETS.. And Bad Guys know this and are targeting them more and more,,,

So many people out there who carry guns believe that their pistol is this magical tailsman that when called upon, will stop the bg cold in their tracks,,

They train in the best conditions a range can provide which is usually inside at targets that don't move, the shooter never moves, nor does the shooter ever have to asses the situation and make a decision before engaging,,, THEY SIMPLY STAND THERE AND PUNCH HOLES IN TARGETS,,

If you are serious, you must train in the rain, in the snow, in the wind, in the freezing snow, in all inclement weather, as well as training on ground that is not smooth and flat, AND AT NIGHT WHEN IT IS DARK

Training must be adverse at least 80% of the times, as these are the times where our minds are else where,,, Example, you are walking to your car and it is freezing rain,, you didn't dress right so you face is down so it doesn't get cold and you are racing to your car, house or business,,, TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS,, these are the times that the BG is waiting for,, as it makes it easier for them.

If you carry, and are serious about it, you should never stand in one place and shoot!, you must be moving to make the BG react to your movements, as this gives you alot of advantages,,

Another bad thing is shooters who think that they can engage a target that is charging at them, or within 10 feet of them,,, you simply will not have the time to decide and present your firearm,,, Yeah,, you can, but in the meantime the BG is doing some serious damage to you, and usually this damage renders your movements useless during the fight.

In other words, if you carry and are serious about protection, learn to avoid, learn to carry and learn to use,,,

Train hard and be safe,,

Ron Lauinger
www.LMIInc.com

[RochPersDef]

'Nuff said.......


That's why about every third scenario at the Tues night shoot is dim or dark.

I hear it's going to rain this weekend, who's going to go out and practice in the rain? I'll be running a class full down in Owego - in the rain.


Can't wait for it to get cold and snowy....lol

[vsorrentino]

I am new to carrying. By the right gun worn correctly cannot be made. I carry a Ruger LCP in a pocket holster. I found that, that imprinted to the person looking for it. So I cut a piece of stiff plastic which is on the outside of the Ruger LCP. What remains looks like I am carrying a wallet in my front pocket. No imprint at all... When I sit down.

So for 4 months now, carrying 24/7, have never been "MADE". And other than my wife and children (All grown and married) no one knows I carry and I like it just like that. Nobodys business. Even at work, where it's against the rules, I told my boss "Don't ask, Don't tell" And he has never asked. Also I figure, if I ever have to use it to protect him or others, I will be thanked for carrying.

[RochPersDef]

I'd like to invite you to a CCW Seminar on Monday at the Gander Mtn store in Henrietta. It will run from 6:30 until 8 or so and covers most of what you need to know about carrying a handgun.


Those that start to carry in public, without the benefit of training or education, are risking not only them selves, but people around them as well. CCW is a big responsibility that should not be taken lightly or for anyone to assume that you will 'figure it out' when you have to use it.

Dave

[VTLO910]

This thread is a very good read. The points made by some of the experienced instructors show a good outlook into living in condition YELLOW. It also shows the the level on intelligence we have here on the forum.

[RochPersDef]

HEY!!!!


Who said intelligence? HUH?

LOL


Thanks for the comments

[FrankRochester]

Originally Posted by RonLauinger

Because of this threat, which is escalating each month,,, you would think that people would learn to carry the right way, as to not advertise this great victory for the BG,,, but unfortunately, most people think they will never be a statistic so they never train to win,, heck, they don't even train, and most those who do train, train wrong, MAKING MOST PEOPLE WHO CARRY GUNS... EASY TARGETS.. And Bad Guys know this and are targeting them more and more,,,

So many people out there who carry guns believe that their pistol is this magical tailsman that when called upon, will stop the bg cold in their tracks,,

They train in the best conditions a range can provide which is usually inside at targets that don't move, the shooter never moves, nor does the shooter ever have to asses the situation and make a decision before engaging,,, THEY SIMPLY STAND THERE AND PUNCH HOLES IN TARGETS,,

If you are serious, you must train in the rain, in the snow, in the wind, in the freezing snow, in all inclement weather, as well as training on ground that is not smooth and flat, AND AT NIGHT WHEN IT IS DARK

Training must be adverse at least 80% of the times, as these are the times where our minds are else where,,, Example, you are walking to your car and it is freezing rain,, you didn't dress right so you face is down so it doesn't get cold and you are racing to your car, house or business,,, TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS TO YOUR SURROUNDINGS,, these are the times that the BG is waiting for,, as it makes it easier for them.

If you carry, and are serious about it, you should never stand in one place and shoot!, you must be moving to make the BG react to your movements, as this gives you alot of advantages,,

Another bad thing is shooters who think that they can engage a target that is charging at them, or within 10 feet of them,,, you simply will not have the time to decide and present your firearm,,, Yeah,, you can, but in the meantime the BG is doing some serious damage to you, and usually this damage renders your movements useless during the fight.

In other words, if you carry and are serious about protection, learn to avoid, learn to carry and learn to use,,,

Train hard and be safe,,

Ron Lauinger
www.LMIInc.com

I would politely disagree about criminals not being afraid of an armed person. If they see a gun, they are more than likely not going to mess with that person. In fact, they will probably think that person is a cop.

You are very right on the training and awareness issues. As Larry Vickers has said "I have found that under conditions of stress a shooter will only be able to shoot to within roughly 50 % of the accuracy potential of a given weapon. And that is only for the best shooters; the majority will not even be close to that." That's why practice is important.

I can't tell you how many people I've argued with when it comes to close quarters contact. People still want to argue that they can recognize a threat, asess that its life threatening, and still draw, aim ( or point shoot), and fire before said attacker can do any damage. I keep telling them they are better off trying to step out of the line of attack and defend themselves with their hands. Not everyone wants to listen.... Oh well.

[ddan24]

Originally Posted by FrankRochester

I would politely disagree about criminals not being afraid of an armed person. If they see a gun, they are more than likely not going to mess with that person. In fact, they will probably think that person is a cop.

Depends on the criminal... maybe the criminal is trained or maybe they are just some low-life who saw a easy score. You don't know if they are on drugs or have consumed alcohol. Usually you don't know their true intentions until it's too late. Don't forget that stolen handguns are worth money on the street as well. Some criminals may see someone carrying a handgun as an easy target. Great deal of people go the handgun route because they can't defend themselves. Another portion believe it will help protect them or others. It's all sorts of different reasons, variations to situations. It's hard to speculate on anything really. Life sucks when it comes to crime.

[RonLauinger]

Originally Posted by FrankRochester

I would politely disagree about criminals not being afraid of an armed person. If they see a gun, they are more than likely not going to mess with that person. In fact, they will probably think that person is a cop.

Several years ago I was part of a study with the Michigan State Police,, and sorry, most of todays career criminals do not fear cops. Most cops are out of shape, and criminals are by far better trained and in much better shape that most cops. Also, like I mentioned, a career criminal knows that most guys, as well as cops, do NOT know how to use a firearm, nor how to fight. Hate to beat on cops,,, but,,, I work with them alot,,,, and they say the same,, NO BUDGET, NO TRAINING. You would think that they would seek training outside of the department,, but very few do,,, as well as civilians,, Most civilians go to an NRA course, they shoot at paper non-moving targets, and they believe that the pistol will save them against a street wise attacker,, OUCH,, Most do not know how to fight (they think they do though), but when was the last time they were confronted with someone who actually wanted to kill them?

Anyways, guns are very attractive to criminals,, they know you have one,, your advantage is GONE,, if they want it,, THEY WILL SURPRISE YOU, AND THEY WILL TAKE IT.

Train hard and be safe,

Ron

[RochPersDef]

That's one reason why I advocate learning how to keep your handgun.

[RochPersDef]

Figured I'd light up this thread again:

Saw another bad attempt at concealing at the WalMart in Gates. Guy was carrying in the SOB (Small Of the Back) idea and when he bent over, the whole Sigma was visible. As I spotted it, the guy turned around and saw me watching him. This began a good debate on CCW for a few minutes. When he asked what I suggested for carry, other than the Uncle Mike's fold a matic envelope he had, I gave him a few options. Hopefully, he will follow up on it. Glad it was me and not some goofball anti gunner that saw him......