Are you really concealed?

[tinker]

Hey guys, I'm likin' the thread!
Last year, I cant remember where it was, there was a mini surge of armed robberies, at gunranges! The badguys waited in the parking lot and as a few guys were leaving the range, tada!! Robbers never wanted any wallets, just the range bags. Keep this in mind some night as your leaving the range.
Also, lets not beatup the uninformed carrier. I will admit that I once thought I was Captain Big Balls. "I can carry a gun, look at me, I'm so special!!" Lucky for me thats when I started doing training, then more training, and more traing. Now I'm fairly well educated and I actively hunt for more education. So, like Dave said, maybe next time you see someone who is in desperate need of guidence, if you can do so covertly, offer them some advice. Or invite them to the next lecture Dave does every so often (he's due for one), invite them to come to GCL on a tuesday and talk to people and see how its done. They may not come willingly, I was very resistant to hear that my motto, "I"m Captain Big Balls and Monroe County says I can carry, therefore I inherantly know exactly what I'm doing!", only worked while I slept. But try to bring more shooters and carriers into the light.

[boscobeans]

""As I said, if everyone did a mirror check, they would probably see what some others see.""


Common sense and a mirror along with a few good holsters.. 34 years now and my handgun has never been noticed.

bosco

[TomD]

Any body give any thought to the possibility that the flashing individual might not be one of the good guys? Maybe a little caution might be in order rather then approaching to be helpful and tell him his slip is showing :-\
Regards,
Tom D

[FrankRochester]

Originally Posted by RochPersDef

Figured I'd light up this thread again:

Saw another bad attempt at concealing at the WalMart in Gates. Guy was carrying in the SOB (Small Of the Back) idea and when he bent over, the whole Sigma was visible. As I spotted it, the guy turned around and saw me watching him. This began a good debate on CCW for a few minutes. When he asked what I suggested for carry, other than the Uncle Mike's fold a matic envelope he had, I gave him a few options. Hopefully, he will follow up on it. Glad it was me and not some goofball anti gunner that saw him......

Did you explain why SOB is such a bad way to carry? Most people don't think about it until someone else brings it up...

[RochPersDef]

When I mentioned the possibility of becoming, at best, a temp paraplegic, he realized that he needs to find a different method

[RochPersDef]

Bringing this one back to life......

Spotted another CCW attempt. This one in a well known eatery. Guy was sitting with his wife and got up. The shirt he was wearing was a very light fabric and short. Did little to conceal the SIG lashed to his belt in an obviously cheap leather holster (Gotta give some points for the leather). Just looking at it from about 15 feet away, you could see that it was made for 'any large semi-auto'. Not real defined and not real well made.

Remember: You paid a good deal for this defensive tool that may have to save your life. Get the best darn training you can afford. Get the best holster you can afford. 25 bucks for the all purpose holster will not do it.

And wear a cover garment that will conceal the gun with any movement or position you get yourself into. Use the mirror by the door and do a self check before you leave the house. No wardrobe malfunctions are allowed....lol

[javerial]

Dave, you've got me looking for people who aren't concealed well now ;D I actually spotted one a few weeks ago at a gas station in Chenango county. Was trying to hide a full sized Glock under a white t-shirt with the tail out. It didn't work real well.

I've worn my rig concealed around the house a few times to get a feel for it while I wait for my carry. It passed the mirror test and the girlfriend test. A year ago without knowing about the gear that's available I never would have imagined that people could hide large handguns as well as they can.

No real sense in spending $600+ on a firearm if you are going to get a cheap holster that isn't comfortable and offers little in the way of effective concealment.

Did you wind up talking to this guy about his gear?

[JStarX7]

I spotted 4 people who were carrying at dinner the other night. ;D Wait, no I didn't. But I knew they were carrying.

I think my wife was a bit surprised to find out the whole table was armed, though. ;D

[ChrisFry]

Guys, does this subject only apply to firearms? No. How about folding knives?

I see people ALL THE TIME with a folding knife clipped into their pocket. These people may or may not be CCW but the fact is that they are giving a tactical advantage away to potential aggressors by allowing that folding knife clip to show. Some Tacticool guys actually have one clipped in each front pocket.

A friend of mine who is a career LEO and very experienced Under Cover operator was meeting with a Confidential Informant at a bar in Chicago a few months back. Seated at a table this is how the conversation started and went:

CI- "Why did you pick this bar to meet, its filled with pigs?"

UC- "Why do you say that?"

CI- "Because those 3 guys up at the bar have those knives clipped in their pockets, see. Those are what all the fuckin pigs carry"

UC- "You're right, lets get out of here"

Todays criminals do the work. They study their tagets and do dry-runs just like a mil or swat team. They are good at what they do. Don't make it easier for them.

Before I get the response about being able to get the folder out of your pocket "in time", there are better options than folders for personal defense and the same exact argument can be made about handguns properly concealed. If your awareness is down and you have lost initiative you have big problems.

[JStarX7]

I don't carry - on a regular basis - any sort of folding knife that I would ever consider using to defend myself, so I never thought about it. I have a nice Swiss Army knife that I use constantly for cutting packages, rope, when a real screw driver isn't handy, etc. It fits nicely inside my cargo pockets on my shorts, or in the spare magazine pouch in my pants. (Yes, I wear 5.11 pants to work. No, it's not for the "tacticoolness".)

When I do carry my folding knife, it's hiking or camping, where I may need a heavier blade to cut something. I don't like the pocket clip, so it sits in a pouch on my belt.

When I see people with knives clipped in their pockets, it doesn't make me look or think twice. Maybe because I need mine so often for utility purposes that I just assume that's the same reason everybody has one.

[boscobeans]

Leave the knives home!.

If you check out NYS knife laws almost any knife can be considered to be a dangerous knife and therefore be a violation.

§ 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree.
A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth
degree when:
(1) He possesses any ... gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum
ballistic knife, metal knuckle knife, cane sword, ... shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or
(2) He possesses any dagger, dangerous knife, dirk, razor, stiletto,
imitation pistol, or any other dangerous or deadly instrument or weapon
with intent to use the same unlawfully against another.

Related notes:

Matter of Jamie D., 59 NY2d 589 (1983). Whether a "knife" is a "dangerous" knife may be determined on the basis of three alternative considerations: one, its own characteristics which show that it is primarily intended for use as a weapon; second, a modification, which converts what would otherwise be a utensil into a weapon; and third, the circumstances of the possession which may reveal that the possessor considers it a weapon and not a utilitarian tool.
- Gun Control in New York: New York's Firearms and Weapons Laws, Lee O. Thomas and Jeffrey Chamberlain

I do not want to explain to a jury why I had a 3 or 4 inch Spyderco folder in my pocket when I was out for the night at a restaurant or theater. If I was at work or out camping and I had a realistic reason to be carrying a knife I would not hesitate.

I have a permit to carry a pistol and that is what I carry (LEGALLY)>

bosco

[darkvibe]

Another section of article 265 says possession of a dangerous knife is presumptive evidence that you intend to use it unlawfully against another.

I don't think a small folder is a big deal.

[darkvibe]

Originally Posted by ChrisFry

Guys, does this subject only apply to firearms? No. How about folding knives?

I see people ALL THE TIME with a folding knife clipped into their pocket. These people may or may not be CCW but the fact is that they are giving a tactical advantage away to potential aggressors by allowing that folding knife clip to show. Some Tacticool guys actually have one clipped in each front pocket.

A friend of mine who is a career LEO and very experienced Under Cover operator was meeting with a Confidential Informant at a bar in Chicago a few months back. Seated at a table this is how the conversation started and went:

CI- "Why did you pick this bar to meet, its filled with pigs?"

UC- "Why do you say that?"

CI- "Because those 3 guys up at the bar have those knives clipped in their pockets, see. Those are what all the fuckin pigs carry"

UC- "You're right, lets get out of here"

Todays criminals do the work. They study their tagets and do dry-runs just like a mil or swat team. They are good at what they do. Don't make it easier for them.

Before I get the response about being able to get the folder out of your pocket "in time", there are better options than folders for personal defense and the same exact argument can be made about handguns properly concealed. If your awareness is down and you have lost initiative you have big problems.

I read something a while ago (before every knife on the market had a pocket clip) about criminals recognizing knives clipped on pockets. I think it was a forum post so take it with a grain of salt but the person said there was a rash of armed robberies of individuals and in many cases the person's concealed handgun was taken. Later, after the police caught the two people doing it, they found out that these guys would find people with knives clipped on their pockets and target them hoping they would have a gun. They would come up behind the person and put a gun in their back and the second person would take their wallet, check for a gun to take etc... Like I said, no idea how true it is but it makes you stop and think.

[RalphXL]

I asked a police acquaintance about wither or not a double bladed knife would be considered a dangerous weapon. He said it depends on the situation, any knife could be considered a dangerous weapon if used while committing a crime.

I carry a folding knife with a clip. The clip really helps keep the knife easily accessible, and keeps spare change and pocket lint out of the knife. The clip is very practical for me.

RalphXL

[waldershrek]

Anything could be considered a weapon depending on how it's used. A screwdriver can kill somebody just as easy as a knife.

[RochPersDef]

Double edged knives have, in the past, been considered 'daggers' and have been thus illegal.........hmmmmm

[JStarX7]

Originally Posted by waldershrek

Anything could be considered a weapon depending on how it's used. A screwdriver can kill somebody just as easy as a knife.

This is what makes me laugh about airport security. So, I can't take my deadly Swiss Army knife on a plane, but I can carry on as many pens as I want? And power cords. And shoe laces. Uh huh.

I wonder if they realize that it's probably easier to kill someone with any of those things than with a small SAK.

"Wait, how did he take over the plane again?"
"He had a 32 pack of BICs, sir! The blue kind!"
"Devious bastard!"
"We have 31 dead passengers. He saved the last pen for himself." :

[waldershrek]

Originally Posted by JStarX7

"Wait, how did he take over the plane again?"
"He had a 32 pack of BICs, sir! The blue kind!"
"Devious bastard!"
"We have 31 dead passengers. He saved the last pen for himself." :

Priceless!

[javerial]

Originally Posted by JStarX7

This is what makes me laugh about airport security.

Airport security is more about security theater than actually securing our aviation system. Reinforced cockpit doors would have been enough to prevent the 9/11 attacks. Setting up a Governmental agency that goes after toothpaste and breast milk doesn't seem to be a good approach, at least from my perspective.

Imagine what we could have done if they had taken the money that's been spent on TSA and used it to hire more Air Marshals instead? Reinforce the cockpit doors and put an armed law enforcement officer on as many flights as possible. That would seem to be a more effective approach than pulling Grandma out of the security line and subjecting her to extra scrutiny because the system told you to pay extra attention to every 5th passenger.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by RochPersDef

You are doing your best to blend in with everyone as you move to a place that may afford you a tactical advantage (cover) and your buddy, who has not really correctly understood the idea of you carrying a concealed handgun, turns to you and says in a loud and panicky voice: " YOU HAVE THE GUN! DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!!"

Wow good point and very nice post! I could easily see someone saying that, or at least making incriminating movements towards me, revealing my little "secret".

[REdwin89]

Originally posted by RochPersDef:
Quote: How do I know, you ask? The grip and rear of the slide were very pronounced profile wise. I also saw a lot of people looking at him too....Wonder if the coppers got called? No that they should as he was 'technically' not breaking the law - it WAS concealed. Unquote.

Just wanted to add that although technically correct, LEO's in and around the Philly area and probably most other areas in PA consider printing as not being concealed and will let you know about it at a minimum. I was taught concealed means no printing.

[RochPersDef]

Yes, that may be true, but we are in NY and should only comment on NY.

[JStarX7]

The thread that WILL. NOT. DIE! (Say it like William Shatner. DO IT!)

Concealment. How many of you look at yourselves in the mirror to determine if you are printing (gun showing through your carry cover) or not? How efficient are you with your concealment clothing?

Haha, I did this all weekend, every time I left the house. I actually had to change Sunday. I thought a long sleave shirt with a t-shirt (My Orwell T-shirt. FUBO! ) over it would be good. Why hello, Mr. Pistol. How nice to see you printing today. DOh! Vest it is!

Also, I never wore vests. Never really saw the point. NOW I see the point.

I like to do the spin and then squat test. Spin - can I see it standing normaly? No? Good. Squat - does it pop right the hell out when I squat down to get something form a low shelf or whatever? No? Good.

[Petrov]

So links to Vests? What are you using?

[JStarX7]

Originally Posted by Petrov

So links to Vests? What are you using?

Um, fuzzy microfiber vests from Kohls. Nothing special. It was just too warm for a t-shirt and a long sleave sweater, but too chilly for just the t-shirt. The vest is nice because it hangs over where my holster is.

I've seen ads for CCW vests and jackets that have a holster built in, but I don't like the idea. OK, so I sit down for dinner in a resteraunt, take my coat off, and now I no longer have control of my pistol.