How "permanent" does a stock have to be when "pinned?"

**Doc8404** · 04-29-2011, 08:31 PM

I'm asking because I'm starting to explore purchasing online (forum or wherever) and if the stock position isn't comfortable or won't work for a new shooter (me), then I'd want to move it and re-pin.

I have enough "issues" since I shoot long arm left handed...then again, makes for a great transition to right-handed pistol.

**JW1069** · 04-29-2011, 10:26 PM

If a collapsable stock was properly "pinned", then you should have to replace the entire receiver extension and pin a whole new stock in place or go with a fixed stock outright. I'd be leery of buying a rifle with a stock that could be "re-pinned".

(fellow lefty rifle/righty pistol shooter here.)

**RayKnobs** · 04-29-2011, 10:39 PM

Mine was pinned. I was able to drill out the pin. It could have been moved and a larger pinned used in the same hole.

**bpipe95** · 04-30-2011, 12:20 AM

Permanent as in it can not be moved, if it can be made to move it is not perm. This is becoming more of an issue ever since that broad down state made it a focus point.

**Sprout47** · 04-30-2011, 12:27 AM

Blind pinned is the standard - it was how stocks were pinned in the now free states under the national AWB. Now, if NYS wants to start saying that isn't good enough that is on them but the cases mentioned haven't been settled yet.

**vantrepes** · 04-30-2011, 10:16 AM

Blind pinned was the Federal standard by default, but NY never made it clear is pinning was enough. People have asked for clarification in the past, and never received it. It's a gray area because no one with authority ever said "Do it this way, and it's good." Now a DA wants to play fast and loose with that standard....
On muzzle breaks, the ATF had a specific standard in writing that people could follow to stay within the law, so I think that kind of got transfered to stocks, and people said "Good enough".

My personal plan is to blind pin, and epoxy the stock to the receiver tube. I'm going to gouge the hell out of the inside of the stock, and score the tube pretty well, as well as add a few dimples to the locking area to make sure that the epoxy has something to hold onto. Between the extra surfaces, the mil. spec epoxy we have at work, and two blind pins from each side, there is no way that stock will ever come off with anything but a jackhammer.

**Mike** · 04-30-2011, 11:03 AM

I need to learn more on this pinned unpinned stock thing. I have been told 10 diff things from everyone who thinks they know the rules. Is there a site or somewhere to get the NYS crap rules.
I was at a shop the other day that had a mossberg .22, the AR sporter or whatever it is. Anyway it had a 6 pos stock on it and the guy told me they were legal because it didnt have some other stuff on it.
When I bought my Varmint killer .22 it came with a pinned stock.

**Gunner57** · 04-30-2011, 11:19 AM

Mike - here's some "light reading" for you... http://www.nyfirearms.com/forums/law...-1-rifles.html If you use the search feature you will find a slew of other threads dealing with the topic.

As far as the pinned stock, that's where NYS is murky at best (read the comments before your's in this post). Until it's tested in court, we may never get a definitive answer.

**JW1069** · 04-30-2011, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by vantrepes

*snip*
the mil. spec epoxy we have at work

Just curious, what do you use?

**vantrepes** · 04-30-2011, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by JW1069

Just curious, what do you use?

I haven't made up my mind yet. We have about 6 different 3M epoxies that are used in different .mil applications. When I get my stock, I'm going to do some spec sheet reading, and figure out what to use. Mostly I think I'll be looking at sheer strength, and adhesion. Once I make up my mind, I'll post it.

**Doc8404** · 04-30-2011, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Gunner57

As far as the pinned stock, that's where NYS is murky at best (read the comments before your's in this post). Until it's tested in court, we may never get a definitive answer.

OK, one of you test this law out and let us all know LOL.

Preferably find some boot cop so he/she can make a truly big stink about it so we can read about it in the news LOL....
(JK)

**Jeff** · 04-30-2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by vantrepes

Blind pinned was the Federal standard by default

I don't think so. It was a ruling for muzzle brakes but as far as I know there was never anything on stocks said by the ATF during the federal ban.

**vantrepes** · 04-30-2011, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by darkvibe

I don't think so. It was a ruling for muzzle brakes but as far as I know there was never anything on stocks said by the ATF during the federal ban.

Sorry, I worded that poorly. "It was the industries accepted standard to try to meet the Federal requirements without guidance from the ATF." would have been more accurate by far.
The simple answer is that the only way to stay within the NYS law without question is to use a fixed stock. As long as the whole rifle is over the legal minimum (a measurement which I can't recall right now, but 26" rings a bell for some reason), it doesn't matter how long the stock is, as long as it is fixed in place. The question is how well does it have to be fixed....

Personally, I keep waffling back and forth on what I want to do for the rifle. Today, I was pretty much set on making a telescoping stock into a fixed one, and calling it a day. Tomorrow, most likely I'll be looking at those "entry" stocks for the 10,000th time, and almost set my mind on getting one. Come Monday, I'll see a used M4 stock kit for sale cheap, and flip the coin again. I still don't have an upper built for it, so it will be a while before I am forced to make a choice.

**SierraOne** · 05-03-2011, 07:52 PM

The way I pinned mine was to pin it the normal way then drilling at a 45 degree angle and pushing a pin there, After that I filled the roll pins with some high strength epoxy until it covered the roll pin and hole. I doubt i'll ever be able to get them out even if I wanted to and I have to add that a little part of me died as i drilled through a brand new stock and ruined it.

**Trekmtbr89** · 05-05-2011, 08:47 AM

When I purchased my Bushmaster XM-15, it came with a M4 Style collapsable stock that was pinned in the extended most position on a rifle length buffer tube. I was able to easily drill out the pins, move it to the desired position and then re-pin it using the original pins. I later purchased a Magpul stock and drilled into one side of the stock and buffer tube and pinned it using a small rollpin.

Conclusion: pinning is never permanent. Epoxies, welding, combined with pinning would be more permanent - but who wants to weld or epoxy anything to their AR? This adds weight and is not desirable.

I would like to think that the Pinned stock with rollpin that Bushmaster puts on it's rifles it sells to NYS would be compliant. However These laws are all subject to interpretation. In the loosest sense - A stock should not be collapsible or easily collapsible using any tools you could bring with you while firing your rifle. In the strictest sense - The Stock should never be collapsible by any means (all one piece).

**Sprout47** · 05-05-2011, 09:01 AM

During the federal ban there was a thing called 'pass the ATF test' - that being if you can collapse the stock by butt stroking the ground several times then it isn't good enough. I guess this had happened for that to be the word of caution when pinning a stock.

kmussack · 05-05-2011, 09:08 AM

When in doubt, use a fixed stock (A1, A2, ACE, etc.)

**Sprout47** · 05-05-2011, 09:14 AM

^ Or get a pre-ban

**Trekmtbr89** · 05-05-2011, 10:18 AM

"During the federal ban there was a thing called 'pass the ATF test' - that being if you can collapse the stock by butt stroking the ground several times then it isn't good enough. I guess this had happened for that to be the word of caution when pinning a stock."

figures that the ATF would require you to do a "test" to your firearm that could result in damaging the buffer assembly and render the rifle useless.

**Sprout47** · 05-05-2011, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by Trekmtbr89

figures that the ATF would require you to do a "test" to your firearm that could result in damaging the buffer assembly and render the rifle useless.

not like that

Was mroe of a - if your weapon ever attracted attention that is the level of scrutiny it would be put through so you better make sure you pin it good and able to withstand the abuse.

**peterwny** · 05-10-2011, 03:25 PM

When I build my AR Lowers, I use a trigger guard pin and an 1/8in drill bit. I drill all the way through the tube (squared part below the spring), drive in the pin and then use a bit of JB cold weld on each end. I don't usually mess with muzzle breaks but I'm confident that my stock-pinning procedure is no worse than what a local gunsmith would do. I'd never like to be in the position, but I doubt any ADA would be able to argue that my stocks are not compliant.

**Fraz01** · 05-16-2011, 06:40 PM

Not to hijack the thread but has anyone experienced first hand or heard stories of any fed/state/local LEO inspecting or questioning the legality of your AR or any other firearm? I make sure to keep my firearms compliant, but was just wondering if there were any horror stories out there? And I don't mean stories of the local crack dealer who gets raided and hit with federal weapons charges, I'm just talking the regular average Joes.

**Sprout47** · 05-16-2011, 07:42 PM

^ yes, the recent case dealing with the dealers that were arrested on long island.

**vantrepes** · 10-19-2011, 10:09 PM

Zombie post, I know, but for a reason.
I bit the bullet, and pinned an M4 stock for this lower.
I used a total of 4 roll pins:
Two on the left side of the lower "rail" on the receiver extension, one on the right, and one right through the adjustment pin it's self,
My logic was simple: If the pins in the sides fail for some reason, the pin that holds the stock in place still won't be able to move, and that will keep it completely fixed.
All of the pins going into the rail go through the plastic, through one side of the rail, and bottom out in a dimple on the inside channel on the opposite side of the rail. The pin going through the adjustment pin goes through the side of the stock, though both sides of the rail, and bottoms out on the other side of the plastic..
As for the epoxy, I went with 3m Scotch-Weld 460 epoxy. It has a 5000lbf/in shear strength, and a 60lbf/in peel strength. In short, it ain't comin' off.
I did all of my drilling before applying the epoxy.
I picked my pin locations, drilled though the plastic shell, then installed the shell on the extension. Then I used the holes in the plastic as guides for the holes in the metal, putting a small dimple in each location. I then removed the shell, and drilled though one wall of the extension rail, being careful to just dimple the other side of the rail to give each pin two points of support in the metal. By not drilling all the way through the extension rail, there's no way to just knock out the pins, and drive them through the plastic.
Once the drilling was done, I smeared the epoxy on the receiver extension, and the inside of the shell. As I slid the shell on, I wiped off the extra epoxy that built up at the front. I wanted to make sure there was a complete bond between the two parts for the entire length of the extension, so I made sure there was extra epoxy inside the shell to me smeared back.
The only down side of this was that some of the epoxy was pushed back into the shell, and I couldn't clean it out before it dried.
I also added a touch of epoxy under the little adjustment lever, mostly because the little rattle it made was annoying, and since it was now useless, there was no reason to put up with it any more.
All in all, I am pretty damn sure that you will be able to collapse the receiver extension tube LONG before you get that stock to move an even a fraction of an inch

**Doc8404** · 10-20-2011, 05:13 AM

I have a lot of friends that are LEO's and I'll tell you this, 99% of them don't know crap about the laws when it comes to firearms and magazines (e.g. preban, rebuilding, etc.). Sad since they can arrest you and you get to fight it later....
the worst is that your prints get sent to the FBI and if not properly purged when the charges are dropped, you get screwed the next time you go to pick up a pistol and they do the NICS check
(Went through that when i tried buying my first pistol.....had a permit, no problems with investigation and then when i picked it up, the NICS check revealed a very old set of prints from an adjudicated arrest as a minor....local court clerk apologoized and had them removed but that took 2.5 months).